### Author Topic: Question for the AP guys  (Read 13313 times)

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#### rotaman

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##### Question for the AP guys
« on: December 25, 2015, 08:00:21 PM »
Real et al,

Does VB depend on a wheel being somewhat biased (i.e. tilted) for it to work? Some sellers of AP systems claim that it can be used on level wheels, what say you?

#### palestis

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2015, 02:44:50 AM »
Real et al,

Does VB depend on a wheel being somewhat biased (i.e. tilted) for it to work? Some sellers of AP systems claim that it can be used on level wheels, what say you?
No. VB means Visual Ballistics. That is observing the speed of the ball and where it starts spinning from, and predicting a range or zone of consecutive numbers (on the wheel of course),  where the ball will land.
It works well if the dealer keeps the wheel turning speed and the ball speed approx. the same from spin to spin.
In European casinos it's easier to track, because the dealer starts the spin from the last number spun, give and take 2-3 numbers on either side. That way you can place your bets before he spins. Also you have to figure out if the spinning consistency works in a CW or CCW rotation or both. In American casinos there is only one ball direction, but the dealer starts the spin from any number he chooses. So you have to be quick in distance measuring. And usually you have to place the bets after the ball starts spinning.
You may also find that because of the dealer or because of an ongoing trend, the drop zone consistency keeps coming back in regular intervals. Like every 3 or 4 or 5 spins.
With practice and undisturbed observation it's a great system to use.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 02:52:40 AM by palestis »

#### rotaman

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2015, 12:44:04 PM »
Thanks palestis. I would be interested in what real has to say about this. I had always thought that to use VB effectively you needed to find a wheel with a "dominant drop" zone, meaning that the ball exits the track within a certain sector. Surely if the wheel is tilted you have a greater advantage than if it isn't?

So if a tilted wheel isn't necessary then in theory all wheels are vulnerable to VB. I guess then that the main obstacle is remaining undetected, because if it becomes apparent to the casino that you're an AP then it's simple enough to implement counter-measures.

#### Real

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2015, 06:23:29 PM »
Quote
No. VB means Visual Ballistics. That is observing the speed of the ball and where it starts spinning from, and predicting a range or zone of consecutive numbers (on the wheel of course),  where the ball will land.-Palestis

No, actually most VB players have no interest in the ball release point.  We look much later in the spin for a specific reference number.

Quote
It works well if the dealer keeps the wheel turning speed and the ball speed approx. the same from spin to spin.
In European casinos it's easier to track, because the dealer starts the spin from the last number spun, give and take 2-3 numbers on either side. That way you can place your bets before he spins. Also you have to figure out if the spinning consistency works in a CW or CCW rotation or both. In American casinos there is only one ball direction, but the dealer starts the spin from any number he chooses. So you have to be quick in distance measuring. And usually you have to place the bets after the ball starts spinning.
You may also find that because of the dealer or because of an ongoing trend, the drop zone consistency keeps coming back in regular intervals. Like every 3 or 4 or 5 spins.
With practice and undisturbed observation it's a great system to use. -Palestis

What Palestis is describing is "dealer's signature".  It's not really true vb, but rather a distant relative of it.  The edge is simply too low using it to make any real money.  Most of the time, the edge simply isn't there.  However, true vb is a much different story.

True vb accounts for several different wheel speeds, and different drop points.  Yes a strong drop is important because it limits the ball scatter, and makes it much easier to plot the target section.

Regarding the dealers.  Dealer's can't pick which deflector they're going to hit.  However, if a wheel has a very strong drop location, dealer's can sector shoot. It also doesn't require "super human skill" to do it.  Even a new dealer with just a few hours of experience could theoretically do it.  It's not the dealer that makes it possible, it's the wheel.  Some dealers will tell you that they can, "Do it on that wheel, but for some reason they can't do it on any others."  The dealers really haven't a clue as to why it can happen, and for the most part whether they truly can hit sections.  Dealer's are just dealers.

VB players can play most dealer's, provided that they don't have a "bad hand" when releasing the ball. (A bad hand = the ball bounces badly when they release it, causing the ball to skid, bounce, shudder, and decay erratically.)  VB players are interested in the last series of ball revs, and for the most part 80% of the dealers will have the same ball decay profile for the last seven or eight revs.

To some degree, every wheel has a dominant ball drop. Good vb players will exploit and play wheels with multiple drop zones, but in the end the better the drop, the bigger the edge.

Regarding the drop.  Strong drop zones aren't just caused by wheel tilt.  Poor placement of the ball deflectors during assembly, a warped ball track and or apron, wear, cracks in the finish, and residue can also cause it.

-Real
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 08:45:11 PM by Real »

#### palestis

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2015, 08:33:50 PM »
Thanks palestis. I would be interested in what real has to say about this. I had always thought that to use VB effectively you needed to find a wheel with a "dominant drop" zone, meaning that the ball exits the track within a certain sector. Surely if the wheel is tilted you have a greater advantage than if it isn't?

So if a tilted wheel isn't necessary then in theory all wheels are vulnerable to VB. I guess then that the main obstacle is remaining undetected, because if it becomes apparent to the casino that you're an AP then it's simple enough to implement counter-measures.
I don't know about a  tilted wheel. In the casino I was going to in Europe they checked for leveling twice a day. Being subject to counter measures is a serious concern for the AP/VB player. Especially if he bets after the ball release. If that alone draws attention, you can imagine what winning consistently will do.
But look at my example to see what I am talking about. Pictures attached.
I chose to observe a CW rotation to make things simple. So we observe two numbers (first "spinning from"
the  second " landing on" number), I skip one number because the next rotation would've been CCW.
I circled the 2 numbers. ( The first is FROM and the second TO).
The + means the distance from the spin starting position to the landing position counting in the same direction of rotation. The (-) is counting the distance that fell short of the starting number.

27-28     +21                            1-19    +17
34-14    +16                           29-11    +21
12-20    -9                              9-3       +8
27-23    +6                             6-23     +7
30-26    +21                           36-26    +23
5-15     +20                           11-14    +11
25-13    +5                            34-23    +8
9-12    +6                              9-18      +2
6-17    -2                               10-0     +19
16-27    -10                            31-27   +22
0-27    +11                              9-9       0
5-34    -10                             30-28    +17
18-27    +19                          33-31    +4
19-35    -6                             32-5    +18
28-23    +22                          3-5     +21
16-5    -2                               14-2    +18
19-13    +9

From the results you can make very important observations which will lead to profitable decisions.
The blue numbers indicate that the landing numbers are between 4 and 11 spaces before or after the starting number. (that means you play around 13-14 numbers).

The red numbers indicate that the landing numbers are between 16 and 23  spaces ahead of the starting number. (That means you bet around 8 numbers only).
Initially the roulette was biased towards the blue numbers with steady consistency.
Later it turned to the red numbers also with steady consistency.
Almost every other spin.
Needless to say that several dealers have changed during that roulette's session.
But the roulette had a mind of its own. Regardless of who spun it.
Processing the CCW rotation I am sure you will find some type of consistency as well.
With a hefty B/R in your pocket, the roulette and the casino doesn't stand a chance.
If for some reason a roulette doesn't indicate any landing consistency, you move on to another roulette that does.
A few observations will tell you if a roulette is a subject of interest.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 09:54:25 PM by palestis »

#### Real

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2015, 08:46:47 PM »
Palestis,

Nice post.

#### BlueAngel

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2015, 01:33:42 AM »
Jim, that's great man! Well done!

#### rotaman

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2015, 09:48:25 AM »
Thanks Real for the detailed reply. I've been looking at various sites which sell AP systems and one in particular caught my eye. It's called "mastersroulette" and their system claims to beat non-biased wheels. From their blurb--

Quote
It's worth paying attention if the system you're thinking of buying shows you in their demonstrations that its capable of tackling not just 1 or 2 pin bias wheels but also 3 pin and level wheels. Although 1 or 2 pin wheels do exist, they are still scarce and a lot of scouting is required to find them in casinos. Knowing you have a system you know for sure can cope with 3 pin and now level wheels is a must if you don't want to be restricted to only being able to play on 1 or 2 pin bias wheels. Bear in mind there are 4 vertical pins on a wheel (some have eight), if you predict a spin correctly, but if the ball stays up on the track a little longer than expected and lands on another pin than on the pin you predicted, then your prediction will no longer be accurate. Masters system will be able to cope with such a scenario and help you maintain accuracy regardless which pin the ball lands on. So be sure you're not being mislead into buying a limited system that you wished could be more versatile and accurate.

So in your opinion is this misleading? They give the impression that there's really no need to scout for biased wheels if you have their system, but I'm skeptical.

By the way, in case anyone is suspicious of my motives, I'm not a shill for mastersroulette, lol, but it's hard to get an objective opinion on the internet, and your posts have an air of authenticity. I've been a system player up until now and have done ok (although I don't claim to have any real edge, of course) and I'm looking to broaden my horizons.

#### Sputnik

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2015, 10:50:18 AM »

rotaman, i have Masters'Roulette.
I would not buy it for 400 Euro.

This is the good points about Masters'Roulette.
They describe 123 deflctor games very good, it is solid method using scatter-overlaps.
It explain the reasion why and how you should pic your reference deflector based upon drop zone.

The down-side is that the way they estimate ball, it is using deceleration pattern/gap and it is valid method predicting 5 to 6 laps before drop. The issue is not they way they estimate ball, it is with todays conditons where dealears say No More Bets 5 to 6 laps before drop, so most common ways estimating ball is not working with todays conditions even if methods are valid.

Today you will not find 1 deflector hitting 7 times out of 10.
You can be happy if you find 2 deflectors hitting 8 to 9 times out of 10, then you are really lucky.
The most common wheel/bias you will find is 3 deflectors hitting 8 to 9 times out of 10.
Forget about level wheels where no edge will manifest.

What you need is to predict ball more early then 5 to 6 laps before drop, Masters'Roulette say they have a solution for that using a old method first introduced by Laurance Scott, is where you look at ball passing one deflector, then you count 123.
When you count 123 the ball will make one full lap within that count.
Now the ball will slow down and you will count 1234 for the ball to make one full lap, then you are 5 laps to drop.
Need practice with video spins to estimate 8 to 9 times correct out of 10.
That is the original.
Now Masters'Roulette say they can do same thing with thumper and predict more early using the same method watching for a gap.
I don't remember the details, but i have it on save skype chatt if i remember correct.

Would i recommend Masters'Roulette, no, because you can get same information for free.
I would aviod Jafco, he does not explain details as good when it comes to how to use 123 deflector hits and estimate ball.

My opinion.

Cheers
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 10:53:10 AM by Sputnik »

#### BlueAngel

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2015, 12:15:06 PM »
The certain thing is that if those people posessed such tremendous skills they wouldn't sell it not even for 4 grant.
You don't have to be an expert to understand it,it's just common sense.
Don't buy anything,you could get plenty information from forums like this.
Don't believe demonstrations on videos because could easily be manipulated...
Personally,if I had a sure win method,I'd kept it to myself and on the downlow.
I'm not implying that there isn't any consistent winning method,but the one who has it simply doesn't bother with BS,what really matters is to use it,he/she knows it true and doesn't have to conveince anyone else but only him/herself.

#### petespin

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2015, 12:34:47 PM »
to sputnik , u say that haved the mastersroulette stuff ,well they offer a new system call 'holy grail' do u know anything about it , i have their  easy sysetm , and i wnat to buy their pro-system before their new ' holy grail'[its sold 1200e] , isnt a good move ? iam begginer in this kind of stuff[AP] , and u refering that the conditions have changed at the last years ,do u mean their systems dont work anymore ? or is this a personal estimation? but after all i think that the price of their pro-system its not 400e but much less ,about 250e , it will be good to make things more clear about AP nowdays .

#### rotaman

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2015, 12:39:13 PM »
Thanks Sputnik for the feedback on mastersroulette, much appreciated. I think you're right BlueAngel, the best way is to roll your own systems, whether they be AP or based on maths. It seems to me that unless you're prepared to put in a great deal of legwork there isn't much future in AP. Maybe it's different in some parts of the world but in the UK and Europe the casinos seem to be pretty much on top of it. Think I'll stick with my "fallacious" systems, lol. They've served me well so far.

#### Sputnik

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2015, 02:33:41 PM »

@ petespin you have been trying to sell methods at different forum boards, so i don't respect you and will not answear you questions

@ rotaman is not to late to use AP methods - does can be among your arsenal / skills ...
you can combine methods and use both as you learn

@ palestis i have amazing wheel signature that you would just love to try out in real casino, pm me and i will help you
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 02:38:45 PM by Sputnik »

#### petespin

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2015, 08:48:03 PM »
well  done sputnik , first off u dont respect yourself with that answer u gave me , second i dont need your help , third i have a system that can win long term and its not AP , fourth where is the law that says that i cant sell a system? and specially if its a winning one? fifth i ve beat gambling industry when u were to nowhere ,and u re still there [to nowhere] , case closed ....

#### Real

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##### Re: Question for the AP guys
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2015, 08:57:42 PM »
Petespin,

Why would someone want to buy your system if doesn't give the player an advantage over the casino?

If your system isn't an AP system then it can't win in the long run, so how then can it be a "winning system"?

Your post is a big oxymoron.