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Mike

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Reasonable Faith
« on: January 21, 2018, 11:59:46 AM »
I've always been fascinated by religion although I'm not signed up to any particular religious faith. I find arguments for the existence of God interesting, although I'm not entirely convinced by any of them, so I remain an agnostic. Here are a few such arguments presented by way of animated videos, none of which lasts longer than a few minutes. They are not intended to "prove" that God exists, but rather show that it's not unreasonable to believe in God, and that it's not a matter of "pure" faith (which is often suggested by atheists, who like to think that they are the smart ones, and that theists are deluded idiots).

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3gdeV4Rk9EfL-NyraEGXXwSjDNeMaRoX
 
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The Bedsit Botter

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2018, 12:35:54 PM »
Who but a slave wants this to be true?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPD1YGghtDk&feature=youtu.be [nofollow]
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 12:39:53 PM by kav »
 

kav

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2018, 12:48:27 PM »
I want so much to commend on this.
The weakest argument I think is the moral argument. Moral duties are defined mainly by the society, not religion.
 

MickyP

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2018, 12:52:57 PM »
Interesting Mike. It's like the rivalry between vb and system players.
I believe in God. I was raised in a house of free choice and I chose to align myself with God. There are morals, principals and values of goodness attached to religion. I am God's child, not his slave.
I also like the teaching of Buddha and other religious faiths. There is goodness in all religions and there is goodness in all people.
 

The Bedsit Botter

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2018, 01:13:16 PM »
Name one moral action performed by a believer that could not have been done by a nonbeliever?
 

Reyth

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 02:37:27 PM »
Since none of us can explain how we came to be out of nothing, the IDEA that God exists and created us is at least POSSIBLE.  We are all intelligent and we all recognize this, but to God we would deny intelligence?  IF God exists, it is IMPOSSIBLE that he could NOT be intelligent, otherwise life itself would not exist.

Have you ever spent even 60 seconds straight thinking what it would be like if you never existed?

Look, I CANNOT convince you of anything but IF God exists, He can.

Its very simple.  I went from atheist to knowing that it is impossible that God CANNOT exist by simply saying in my mind and heart with sincerity, the following:

"God, IF you exist, show Yourself to me and I will believe in You."

It didn't work when I only recited it without committing my heart to what I was saying.  I really had to MEAN it, for it to "take effect".

My life changed forever from that point but it wasn't overnight.  It took a period of years but God did not abandon me.

There is nothing greater in this life than the love of God.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 03:21:34 PM by Reyth »
 
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The Bedsit Botter

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2018, 02:46:41 PM »
It is entirely possible that we came out of nothing.

Quantum mechanics tells us that there is no such thing as empty space.

 
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vitorwally

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2018, 03:33:55 PM »
As an agnostic myself that is kind of integrated in Christianity i can say that those videos surely dissect some of the arguments most of my atheist friends use. The last two videos about suffering and evil are more empty of substance because, specifically in the last one, the narrator uses as premisses background from The Bible which makes those premisses pretty hard to validate, logically. Nevertheless the videos are surely worth a watch and I'm glad i finally got some time to spare here. Good share.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 03:39:41 PM by vitorwally »
 

Badger

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2018, 03:58:42 PM »
The Bible says that you become a sinner when you break one of the 10 commandments. Also that the wages of sin is death. In other words you don't go into the after life if you sin.

Therefore moral actions performed by believers or non believers is of no effect in terms of entering the after life. We are all in the same sinking ship.
 

The Bedsit Botter

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2018, 04:19:08 PM »
For tens of thousands of years, humans lived for 20 or 25 years before they died of microorganisms they didn't even know existed.

Christians believe that Heaven watched this for 98,000 years and then suddenly decided to intervene 2,000 years ago with a sacrifice in a remote part of Palestine.

This can’t be believed by a thinking person.

I think I need to log off before I suffer a fit of apoplexy.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 04:23:25 PM by kav »
 

Mike

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2018, 04:29:03 PM »
The weakest argument I think is the moral argument. Moral duties are defined mainly by the society, not religion.

I agree. Of them all, I personally think the most convincing is the argument from contingency, but there is another argument not in the list which is my favorite : the argument from motion by Thomas Aquinas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdjjqFSEJ_Y

Quote
The last two videos about suffering and evil are more empty of substance because, specifically in the last one, the narrator uses as premisses background from The Bible which makes those premisses pretty hard to validate, logically.

Yes I think most people find these weak. It's very hard to maintain the belief that there is a supremely good and powerful being and at the same time so much suffering. It's been said that the decline in Christianity in Europe owes much to the first world war; where suffering was experienced on an unprecedented scale. And of course later events in the twentieth century only made things worse.
 
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Reyth

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2018, 04:32:46 PM »
The argument of Motion utilizes the same principle as his other 4 proofs -- something cannot exist from nothing; there must be something that "pre-exists" for anything to be -- that something is God.  All the logically mandatory aspects of God flows from this concept.

We can sum it all up in a very simple sentence:

Because I exist, God MUST exist.

If we wish to be quaint we could say:

I think, therefore God is.

He is called the "Angelic Doctor" because not only are his arguments so intellectually satisfying but because they also contain a mystical component -- contemplating his work unifies us with the Heart of God! :D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 04:41:19 PM by Reyth »
 

Mike

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2018, 04:36:03 PM »
For tens of thousands of years, humans lived for 20 or 25 years before they died of microorganisms they didn't even know existed.

Christians believe that Heaven watched this for 98,000 years and then suddenly decided to intervene 2,000 years ago with a sacrifice in a remote part of Palestine.

This can’t be believed by a thinking person.

I think I need to log off before I suffer a fit of apoplexy.


I think you're reading too much into the arguments. They don't argue for the God of any specific religion such as Christianity, and they aren't really concerned with details in scripture which must be taken on faith. They are philosophical arguments which appeal only to "common sense" or experience of nature; things which most reasonable people believe regardless of whether they're religious.
 

The Bedsit Botter

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2018, 05:30:30 PM »

I think, therefore God is.



I Think Therefore I am an Atheist
 

scepticus

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Re: Reasonable Faith
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2018, 05:39:35 PM »
In matters of  religion I am an unbeliever.  . Not all Atheists claim that religion is nonsense- only that there is no compelling evidence that a Supreme Being exists.  What many Atheists call for is that the Religionists should not be the Arbiters in society and impose their selective view on others . In other words they want a secular society and a secular society is not anti- religious but one that allows for freedoms applicable to all .
Why should we believe we are created by God ? Where is the evidence ?
Over the centuries societies have been ruled by religionists and they have been cruel societies so religionists cannot claim the high moral ground.
Like many things in life - we just don'.t know but rather than accept that .they don' t know  teliginists prefer to believe in SOMETHING . 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 05:41:59 PM by scepticus »