Author Topic: Dealer Signature  (Read 1988 times)

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scepticus

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2018, 01:13:25 AM »

With REAL CASH .Yes
TAWK in forums is cheap.You  need to  put YOUR money where your mouth is !

and Fyodor
You are NOT going against the grain here . I am. though .
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 01:16:02 AM by scepticus »
 

Fyodor

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2018, 06:41:53 AM »
OK Scepticus, I just finished playing two sessions, in fact I am still in the Casino.
Played my Formula1, 2, 3 strategy.
First session, profit 500 (LCU),
Second session, profit 1700 (LCU)
100 (LCU) starting bank each time.
Think I have earned the weekend off.
 
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Scarface

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2018, 03:13:02 AM »
If dealer hits the same side of the wheel as previous spin, play that side (half the wheel).  If dealer hits opposite side as previous spin, play opposite side half.  For a 50/50 bet, this seems like it would be alot more consistent with less variance than playing red/black or odd/even
 

MrPerfect.

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2018, 11:01:14 PM »
No, you will get exactly same results as black / red.
  There is much more to dealer signature then many realise. 
  On my practice , when it's playable, it has little in comon with dealer himself.
 

Fyodor

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2018, 02:59:57 AM »
Every spin/result at the table in a B&M, is the result of a deliberate motion/application to propel the ball, with enough force, that it will travel in excess of (at least) four revolutions of the ball race.
There is no upper limit to the amount of force that can be applied in launching the ball, and I have observed more than twenty-five circuits, before the ball finally fell into a pocket.
While the speed of the ball decays, to the point where centrifugal force is overcome by both friction and gravity, a different application of physics is involved in the mechanical operation of the wheel.
It is engineered to spin on a vertical, lubricated bearings/axle/spindle, and, with moderate force applied, may continue to rotate (uninterrupted) for a very considerable period, with minimal reduction in speed.
In any case, much longer than the period between ball launch/rest.
As is often the case, the (apparent constant) of the rotor, is higher than the decay speed of the ball, (I am leaving out the effects of the deflect "diamonds" at this point) and can not only halt the forward progress of the slowing ball, but add velocity to the ball, with various unforeseen results.
The worst of these being, that the ball is struck out of the bowl completely.
Obviously, playing at a table where the dealers attitude/reputation/indication/signature, includes either (or both), faster than average rotor or ball/launch speed, should be avoided if at all possible.
There are dealers with "reputations" of wiping everyone off the table, house wins the majority.
There are dealers with "attitudes" who believe they can "avoid" big payout wagers.
There are dealers who are "known for throwing doubles" with reliability.
There are dealers who will "let" you win by throwing numbers or sectors that you wager on.
These examples are all folkloric fallacies, no matter how many times you hear them.
The problem is, those "histories" are now in your head, and if "that" dealer, ever hits his reputation "signature" result, you will be convinced that it is all true.
Dealer "Signatures" exist, depending on your interpretation of the game, but Gamblers Fallacy instigated them, the players perpetuated them, and the dealers just go along with them, to give themselves a reputation.
As MrPerfect said,
"It has little in common, with the dealer himself."
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 03:52:00 AM by Fyodor »
 

MickyP

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2018, 09:59:06 AM »
  There is much more to dealer signature then many realise. 
  On my practice , when it's playable, it has little in comon with dealer himself.
We are talking dealer signature here. Right?
Please explain the "it has little in common with dealer himself" comment.
MrPerfect, maybe in your response you can start by giving your definition of Dealer Signature so we are all on the same page. Thanks.
 

MrPerfect.

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2018, 01:24:36 PM »
Im very simple fellow and do not expect ball or wheel or dealer follow any of my assumptions  ( fallacies if you wish). I just follow what these 3 do and collect data. Data that l collect show me what was going on with these 3 ( dealer, ball, wheel)... and permit to model play situations for optimal play. All l ask from these 3 is consistent behaviour. 
   Many think about dealer signature as distance between pokets on landing numbers. On my humble opinion it's too much to ask for. Without control of governing variables and understanding of the game itself,  such a play is " following hot distances fallacy".
     Obviously such a play could be implemented on " perfect wheel" , but such do not exist.
      My definition of " dealer signature " is consistent dealer behavior in what he does. It has next to nothing to do with numbers itself,  but more with variables governing game and how likely dealer is to produce them consistently.
    Most of " dealer sinature" that has a chance to present itself is related to wheel and ball, not to the dealer. Dealer can change conditions, but conditions will determine numbers, distances , frequencies; not the dealer himself. Same conditions  will result in same results, independently of the dealer.

   
 
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Sputnik

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2018, 05:42:07 PM »


 How many of you members has memorize the wheel numbers?

 Cheers
 
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kav

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2018, 06:52:04 PM »
I certainly do.

It happened  many years ago automatically. Visiting the casino often, betting various sectors over the wheel, looking at the wheel the time the ball drops and seeing the sector near my numbers etc. It just happened by experience and the focus on the ball dropping on the wheel and the near miss effect. And the adrenaline makes the experience more intense and helps memory.

Also knowing that Black - Red and high - Low and Even - Odd numbers, mostly alternate on the wheel, helps to remember the numbers more easily.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 10:40:45 PM by kav »
 

Fyodor

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2018, 10:24:05 PM »
Memorized the EU wheel over 40 years ago.
The sequence of numbers on the wheel, is the most efficient distribution of numerical order possible for such a game.
IMO, this is why the original game has maintained its longevity.
Before the addition of the zero, (to make the game commercially viable) there were established "patterns" of number sequences, that were easier to extricate and appreciate before the zero (house adv number) was added, but, even that location did not detract from the original sequence "balance"
Analyzing the wheel sequence, for me, was like discovering a hidden (symbolic) treasure, and I have appreciated the hidden-in-plain-sight design ever since.
The "alphabet" of the wheel is the most primary attribute in the formation of gaming plans, strategies or systems, and those who play, without the "knowledge" leave themselves disadvantaged in the scheme of expectations.
The numbers may add up to 666, but even the Devil, could not have placed them in better order.

 
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Real

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2018, 10:47:57 PM »
Why do you consider the way the numbers are placed on the wheel to be relevant?

After all, you can simply bet the numbers as they lay on the wheel.
 

Scarface

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2018, 02:03:46 AM »
If the casino does not believe that dealer signature is possible, why do they rotate dealers out every half hour or so.  I don't know of any job where an employee gets so many breaks  :)

And from what I understand, casinos outside the US alternate their spins from clockwise to counterclockwise.  Why so much precaution if dealer signature provides no edge?

On a fast table, where dealers pick up the ball and spin almost robotically every 45 seconds seems like it would give you the ability to predict sections that hit to overcome the 5% house edge.  I would think even the AP guys would agree with this
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 02:10:30 AM by Scarface »
 
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MickyP

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2018, 02:24:22 AM »
@Fyodor. I think you did a great job explaining the importance of number placement on the single zero wheel. To explain it any better to those who don't understand you'd have to use pictures...lol

@Scarface. Sound reasoning but a pictorial timeline of different croupiers at the same table and close up pictures of the wheel spinning both ways would eliminate any confusion.
 

Real

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2018, 02:30:45 AM »
Quote
If the casino does not believe that dealer signature is possible, why do they rotate dealers out every half hour or so.  I don't know of any job where an employee gets so many breaks   

To break up the game, to keep dealers fresh in order to reduce errors, to give players the feeling that they have a fresh shot at making money and reduce the odds of theft via dealer/player collusion such as past posting and marking wrong numbers.

Quote

And from what I understand, casinos outside the US alternate their spins from clockwise to counterclockwise.  Why so much precaution if dealer signature provides no edge?

The reason the wheels alternate is mainly because of wheel bias.  Over the last 100 years and even more, casinos were spanked by biased wheel players.  Changing the direction can change the numbers which perform as bias. 

Quote
On a fast table, where dealers pick up the ball and spin almost robotically every 45 seconds seems like it would give you the ability to predict sections that hit to overcome the 5% house edge.  I would think even the AP guys would agree with this

Yes dealers can section on a wheel if it has the right conditions.

1. Strong dominant ball drop.
2. Reasonable ball bounce/scatter.
 However AP players don't rely on the dealer, as it's terribly inefficient.  We don't need to the dealer to be "on our side" or section shoot for us.  Many APs can predict where the ball will land without the dealer's cooperation and we don't need to see where the dealer even releases the ball... VB doesn't depend on it.

There's no real magic to how the numbers are placed these days.  In the old days a biased wheel would have stood out more quickly if you'd have had the wheel in a numeric layout (1,2,3,4...) and the dozens could have theoretically turned into reasonable bets for certain biased wheels.  You could also imagine how beneficial it would be for VB players to simply lay an outside bet for a section of the wheel.  However, these days wheels are better made and there's less reason to mix the numbers as they lay on the wheel.  There are also racetrack bets available for players that choose to bet a section of the wheel.

So Fydor, why do you feel the way the numbers are placed on the wheel is magical?

-Really
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 02:59:37 AM by Real »
 

Fyodor

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Re: Dealer Signature
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2018, 11:42:17 PM »
Magical? No, but perfectly balanced, challenging, artfully distributed in a sequence that defines and exemplifies this format as the most unique of all the salon/parlor games.
And, as this forum illustrates, the most discussed, conjectural, debated and considered (outside of poker) as a GAMBLING tableau.