Author Topic: can a program be random?  (Read 5267 times)

petespin

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can a program be random?
« on: January 20, 2016, 09:39:01 AM »
this is question about math guys -programmers basicaly, but analyze the word 'program' its obvious that we are talikng about something that given certain instructions to execute , knowing about slot machines technology , ican say for sure that programmers do the best they can do to make a program to 'seems to be random' coz in computer science [till now atleast] there is not anything completely random, ex. in slots they built an average of small sized wins, medium sized wins, a very rare jackpot win , etc , now comparing with the roulette dare to say that roulette s program is in fact the placement of the numbers on the wheel , dont forget that there are not infinite outcomes ,but only 37 in every spin ....


 

dobbelsteen

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2016, 10:07:19 AM »
It is very easy to manipulate the output of a pseudo RNG.
Without the source code of the RNG you cannot prove the RNG is fair. I distrust the software of internet roulette.
 

spins

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2016, 10:12:11 AM »
lowest pay out generally wins, there is a name for this but its slipped my mind
 

Trilobite

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2016, 12:50:30 PM »
Yes programs can be random, or random enough for most research.

I once paid yes paid good money back in the early days of programming for a specialist to design a random number generator (rng) program for me. Within 12,000 spins I had identified a loop.

I went back to the programmer and showed him. He went back to work to develop a better rng. Within 20,000 spins I had found another loop.

Back I went for further consultation and the programmer tried again.

Anyway, in the end he created an excellent rng that served me well. But I never did trust it beyond around 50000 spins, though I probably could have because among other things, it would re-seed every second or so.

When you test extremely large sample files with computer generated numbers you run a risk of there being looped sequences, which if they occur can either throw false positives/false negatives, or render the output data as corrupted and inaccurate.

This is all just my opinion.
 

BlueAngel

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2016, 11:45:29 PM »
That's why some relate RNG roulette to slots rather than actual roulette with its wheel,ball...etc
 

petespin

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2016, 01:32:40 PM »
just to help u understand what i try to say about that no program can be random, just think.. a slot machine session , and monitor and write down the wins after hundreds of spins , dont have rto look about the symbols on the screen , just the returns[wins] ,then u probably figure out what i mean , u can do the same with rng roulette , keno, etc evrything is well controloed than random ,i would say , in addition nowdays server based machines are in fact like scratch-off lotery , though pretedermined results ... in billion gambling industry there is not a place for randomnnes! sadly...
 

dobbelsteen

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2016, 08:32:52 PM »
The problem is, how do you definite the term or word  RANDOM
 

Reyth

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2016, 12:05:32 AM »
Upon thinking about it, I agree with the people on the gaming site I practice on.  They said:

Quote
True random does not exist.

They are of course correct.
 

petespin

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2016, 09:35:22 AM »
true randomness is the bilion people out there that no one look like to another , thats the true randomness , its just an example ,but this 'program' doesnt create by humans ,and iam very doubtfull if ever humans reach at this point!
 

GameNeverOver

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2016, 11:03:21 AM »
Ok guys, here's my opinion about "randomness" and programs:

there is no such thing.

Lets get little deeper in the problem.

Why are there online casinos and RNG roulette (they are essentially programs)? Because we, the humans, are gamblers by nature. We want to grow our wealth faster then we've earned by working hard for it. We want to grow our 10K into 100K ASAP. So we work till we've built a little nest and then we start looking for ways to grow it. Because most of the sure things (there is nothing 100% sure on this world, but they are more secure then using the roulette wheel as tool for building wealth) like analyzing the market and buying stocks and waiting for the price to rise and sell them for profit, or buying bonds, or putting our money into investment funds needs big amounts of money and usually bring in low ROI over longer time period. So people decide to gamble and try to make quick money. Here comes into play the sports betting venues (local and online) and casinos (again local and online). Both, the bookies and the casinos are responding to the same basic human need: the need for more AKA human greed and laziness.

I've mentioned the bookies and the casinos, but I didn't mention why they are where they are in the first place.
You can guess it (and you'll guess it right): their owners opened them to make some money too. So when the player is losing, they win. And vice versa. And just like the players are going to the casino and they are doing everything they can do to maximize their chances to win, the casinos do the same. So the B&M casinos have incorporated lots of distractions to interrupt players thinking process, and the online RNG casinos (because they can't distract the players) manipulate their programs to ensure their upper hand and profits.

The only problem with this fixing is the fact that except the crazy results that the RNG wheel creates (and you won't see anything even close to that on real wheels), you can't do nothing to prove that you are right. If you complain they'll say that "The results are totally random." and they will send you few links from the company or gambling commission who regulates their working and tell you to complain there. If you do complain, the GC will wait for few days (pretending they are checking the issue) and then they will send you a long mail where they'll explain that everything is "random" and your case is just one rare case of bad but random luck.
You'll know its BS, but that is what it is: in most of the cases these gambling commissions are based somewhere, 1000s of miles from nowhere, and they have low salaries but they compensate with the casinos big money.
You'll accept your loses, close the account in the RNG casino and will never ever again consider playing in any other online casino.
Why?

Because they possess a licence to steal your deposited money.

=GNO=
 

dobbelsteen

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2016, 03:28:40 PM »
The pseudo RNG is an mathematical algorithem wth a seed numberThe seed number can be changec by an second pseudo RNG.
Now there is a possibility that a new seed number is the same as a prior number, This results in a bias in the random sequence or a loop likely occurence
 

Mike

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2016, 03:36:38 PM »
I don't trust RNG casinos either, but it's not easy to tell the difference between (an honest) RNG and spins recorded from a real wheel.

I challenge anyone to tell the difference between "spins" taken from random.org and those from a wheel. Random is random.
 

Reyth

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2016, 07:29:23 PM »
How long would it take you for 2000 spins in a B&M casino?  It took me 4 hours online.  If you say that you will never see anything like what you see online, you also have to factor in the time difference and compare apples to apples time-wise.
 

Real

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2016, 08:37:22 PM »
RNG free play modes are much like the slot machine free modes.  Pretty much no matter how you play you are destined to win because of the positive payout program.

Free play does a fine job of fooling system players.
 

Mike

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Re: can a program be random?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2016, 06:34:02 AM »
Reyth,

You make a good point.  Forum members often complain that with RNG they see all kinds of "weird" sequences which they never see on a real wheel; it could be that's because you generally get a lot more spins per hour with RNG. More spins means more chance of seeing the "weird" stuff. Also you have to take into account that if you're suspicious in the first place then you're more likely have those suspicions confirmed (sometimes we see what we want to see).