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Author Topic: Fair game or not?  (Read 5201 times)

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kav

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Fair game or not?
« on: June 05, 2015, 08:12:06 PM »
There have been reports and suspicions about rigged games with any type of roulette: physical roulette wheels in casinos, casino rapid roulette, live dealer online roulette and Random Number Generator online roulette.

People often say that casinos do not need to cheat because they already have an advantage. This is not true. Many casinos are actually losing money (Las Vegas casinos lost $1.3 Billion) and they need to squeeze out the last dollar of their players. And don't forget greed; it is a very strong temptation.

Do you think most roulette games are fair? What are your thoughts on the subject?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 09:35:46 AM by kav »


 

BlueAngel

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2015, 11:51:08 PM »
Some might support one side,while others support the other side of the coin.
Like almost in everything,this is a "coin" with 2 sides...
In my point of view,both sides are true,both of them are just expressing their personal beliefs which are based on their personal experiences.
So,if none of the 2 opposing sides have deceptive intentions,how could both be true??
Regarding my perception,the truth/reality is not only "black" and/or "white",there are also many tones of "grey",some are darker,while other "grey" are lighter...
Therefore if you accept my point,anyone would find what he/she is looking for,because in this world there are examples of both sides of the coin,the majority of them is somewhere in the middle,somewhere between the "black" and "white".
One last thing,if anyone,for any reason,valid or invalid,believes that results are been manipulated by the casinos,then these persons shouldn't be here or bothering with any form of gambling at all!
If you really believe that somehow someone or something manipulates the outcomes,please do your self a favor and DON'T BOTHER with gambling ANY MORE!
Whether you call it horse racing,football,basketball,poker,blackjack,roulette,craps...you name it, THERE IS NOT ANY POINT TO KEEP WAISTING YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY ON "FIXED" OUTCOMES!
I really understand and respect the decisions of whom who have decided to stop or even don't start at all the gambling for their valid reasons or even for just suspicions.
What I'll NEVER understand is someone who almost always complaints about various things,BUT from the other hand is doing NOTHING to change what he/she doesn't like!
By saying doing nothing,I don't mean to manipulate the outcomes,neither to harm the manipulators,BUT you do have the option to QUIT entirely from the gambling scene,or if you haven't begun yet,not to start if you have valid indications which could cause you material loses.
What's the point after all?!
It's like stating that you don't like a particular restaurant,BUT you still keep going there and supporting an enterprise which is against your ethics,your moral values,against fairness,against law!
Does it make sense for you??
 

Jesper

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2015, 05:04:53 AM »
I do not think it is common. If we never see any win, the game will lose attraction. I have only heard about it from players, which use long progressions, which as expected bust.  It is " rare" event like  long runs, long sleeps, and the option some short runs "is not random" - like 11,11,11,11,13,11,11,13,2.2.
Every time I hear of it it is anecdotal. We have zillions of collected spins from many casinos, so we could test it using statistical methods over longer samples.

Said that, cheating to some extent, we ca find in any sector of our society. A casino just popping up on a Google search, offering  huge bonus, I should not try.

Some casinos on line should use fairness control,some do, but why not all?

The security one casinos and even other places do not work so much towards theire customers, the risk is from the people working, The most commom crimes are made by insiders, sometimes in cooperation with costumers. We have had such cases in casinos here. A dealer just paid out some more each time to a layer winnings,  Unfairness towards casinos may be more common than towards players.

So I Think we can find cases of cheating from players and staff in casinos.. Rigged systems I think is not common today, in fact I think it is rare and will be detected.

It is allways hard to proof a random stream is not random, in a short sample.

I think cheating in random games are fewer than manipulating in sports betting, in the financial world. Inside knowledge and fixed outcomes happens. Normally not from bettors/investors not the bookies or Marketplace. I am more worried of the financial sector than the gambling. The cheating there risk more than a few individuals money, they can destroy a country.

Some can really do anything for Money, greed is a strong force.
 

Reyth

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2015, 05:47:53 AM »
I think rational views like I am reading here are the way to go.  Its almost like its human instinct to immediately suspect cheating when we lose extraordinarily but the fact is that if we are in the face of full random, spinning that wheel, we WILL experience the "other side" of our not 100% chances and this will happen without any casino cheating required.



I think the three of us will tend to agree that people who cry "cheating!" are most likely misinterpreting valid statistical outcomes due to unrealistic expectations & pain of loss.

All of us are tempted to do this.  Its human nature.  It takes courage & strength to apply one's intellect and overcome a potentially strong instinct, especially when we feel as though we have been treated unjustly.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 06:00:03 AM by Reyth »
 

dobbelsteen

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2015, 07:55:57 AM »
Holland Casinos is an organisation of the state.  We have a very good controle authority. I fully trust all the games are fair. I never trust commersial institutions. They all need a profit. Software can only be examined by the source program. The source is Always secret. On internet rigit software for the roulette is offered.

I have tested some RNG roulette by playing only Black and Red.
The zero falls more than the expected number. Play only Red and  the ratio B/R is larger than 1.
I know it is no evidence.
A long time ago on internet was a list of villainy casinos.
 

Jesper

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2015, 08:07:37 AM »
There are casinos how use a bullitprof fairness system. At least for the 60 numbers ahead. They could still if we play long the same way , adjust the numbers. I have no evidence they do.

A casino which send a mail, you are restricted to 6000 Euro winning, are probably honest, as they could just not made it happen.
 

Reyth

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2015, 02:13:17 PM »
HEY!  Wouldn't B&M casinos love to spread paranoia about online RNG casinos?
 

kav

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2015, 02:23:11 PM »
Thank you very much for the thoughtful replies.

HEY!  Wouldn't B&M casinos love to spread paranoia about online RNG casinos?
:-) good point!
 

Jesper

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2015, 02:43:54 PM »
HEY!  Wouldn't B&M casinos love to spread paranoia about on line RNG casinos?

They may, in many fora there are a few-posters shouting  RNG is s slot!!!

We have BM casinos here as well, not far away, but I can not buy 10000 chips for 100 Euro, they will give me  50 chips, and then other methods must be used.
 

BlueAngel

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2015, 02:54:45 PM »
Quote
They may, in many fora there are a few-posters shouting  RNG is s slot!!!

Isn't it?? Of course RNG's are like sluts!
So why to blame the ones who shouting the truth??
The wheel and a program is NOT the same thing!
About online bonuses: just consider why almost every online casino offer those but all brick and mortar casinos don't,think about it!
I consider bonuses as money traps,what I win with my money is mine and I can take it anytime I want,my money and my winnings remains instantly available and I don't have to fulfill ridiculous wagering requirements for a tiny bonus!
The bonuses are always too small in comparison with what you have to do in order to withdraw any money.
 

Reyth

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2015, 03:05:10 PM »
I think there is another factor with online casinos and the bonus money.  Its actually like how banks offer specials to deposit with them.  I have theorized that the key is the casinos get to hold your money just like a bank and they can invest it if they wish just like a bank and so the goal is to get you to deposit so they can hold your money.

I have an account with one casino that has been sitting there with 77 units for like months now (77 units for roulette is like thousands of units for THE).  They are holding my money.

Just my take on it anyway.

Its like if you want to leave with your money in a B&M casino you just walk out.  Conversely though, I have read about people that go through the online withdrawal qualification one time and are clear to make withdrawals once they properly proved their identity.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 03:14:41 PM by Reyth »
 

Jesper

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2015, 03:11:28 PM »
The RNG has the same probability as any Wheel. It is even more fair, as any Newtonian physics are not involved, which can have imperfections. They claim otherwise should proof it. A decent casino DO NOT use a pseudo random generator, the quality is the same as for example random.org. 

You can even check the fairmess in some casino.

The odds which give the casino an advantage is built into the rules, fixed despite the physical ambient produce the number.

Some claim it otherwise, it need to be some Money in Before the RNG pay out, That's NOT the case.

Anybody is welcome to deliver proof of the opposite!!
 

dobbelsteen

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2015, 12:07:18 PM »
The roulette animation on the RNG roulette is an illusion. Before spinning, the RNG has generated a number and after that the animation of the number  is started. Every number has his own animation.
Read the paper of Robert Groenen on the home page.
 

Jesper

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2015, 01:32:15 PM »
The roulette animation on the RNG roulette is an illusion. Before spinning, the RNG has generated a number and after that the animation of the number  is started. Every number has his own animation.
Read the paper of Robert Groenen on the home page.

We know, my casino send them to me beforehand, and using a key, I can check they have not adjusted it during the play.

It is a fair check, not a random check.

Yes it is an animation, so Kesselglucken won't work, I Think Real may object it.
 

petespin

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Re: Fair game or not?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2015, 08:53:49 PM »
simply when u start your own business ,  youir  first thought is how u ll have profits from that job , its the same but on higher scale with casinos , i dont think that anyone could beleive that let things on pure luck . we can never forget that online casinos use something call MCSAP [ multiple controller system activity programs] and in fact they monitor player s moves and stake amounts!!