Author Topic: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth  (Read 7401 times)

falkor

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Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« on: September 27, 2014, 11:45:12 AM »
I posted this at one other forum, but am very interested in any opinions kav and crew might have also! I think kav has a very professional looking site here and clearly knows his stuff.
Hi, can anyone please confirm which of these methods is correct or most valid? Is there any other methods/variations that you know of?
Also, I would like to discuss the viability of adapting this to cover 5/6 double streets? Would it mean a higher bank roll? More attack time? More losses compared to winnings? Waiting longer for a big win? Wins never that big? Or vice versa? How exactly would you perceive and describe such an adaptation - I doubt it's been tried/tested before? Is it worth wasting energy over?
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I thought it was a production from 'mr oops' and I was right, lol.
Anyway I have to mention that this is a copyright (2000) but he gives permission to distribute it as long as I mention the copyright. (s***, where did 11 years of my life go  :D )
This was one of his ideas for using a reverse labby if you were wanting to bet 2 dozens or columns. I have never really looked at it in detail but methods I have developed in my blog may compliment something like this.
ok, here it is:
SOLUTION? SO, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? The problem is that you, when betting on two dozens or columns at the same time and one of them hits, you will only get half of your total bet in net gain and, as this winning is going to be "put onto the line", you will get an ever decreasing line. Try it!
THIS IS MY SOLUTION: Set the bank-roll to 20 units for a session and write a line looking like this:
2 - 4 - 6 - 8

As you can see, all figures are even. This is because we are going to bet two bets at the same time, so we have to split the bet into two parts. To make this an automatic task, we avoid all un-even figures...
Now, the first bet will be (add 2 + 8} 10 units split into two parts = 5 units for each dozen (or column). Suppose we win. The bet was 2 times 5 and one bet was lost and one bet won twice its value, returning only 15 units! That is 5 unit in profit. The way I see it, there is no place on the line for a figure "5". So, I'll quite simply note it on the paper and bet the same bet a second time.
Suppose we lose this bet. It was made out of 2 + 8 so we cross them out and the line looks like:
X - 4 - 6 - X

Remember the noted "5"? The next bet will also be (add 4 + 6) 10 units - 2 bets of 5 units each. This time we win and we win 5 units. Now, there was another "5" noted so we add them together getting 10 which we put on the line:
X - 4 - 6 - X - 10
The next bet is (add 4 + 10) 14 making it 7 units on each dozen/column and we win 7 units and we NOTE it only and bet a second 2 times 7 bet. We lose and cross out:
X - X - 6 - X - X
...and a noted "7". We bet 6 (2 x 3) and win 3 units. Now there are two ways to go and I prefer one way but cannot say that one is the better. The first way is direct: Add the noted "7" to the won 3 making a total of 10 to put onto the line, making it look like:
X - X - 6 - X - X- 10

The next bet would then be 2 times 8 (6 + 10)... and you must add or subtract one if you get an odd figure...
The second way, my preferred way, is to add equal figures only, like the two 5s earlier. So we note the "3". One reason: There will automatically be only even figures to put onto the line. A second reason will be revealed as we play a few spins more with the line looking like:
X - X - 6 - X - X
and we have a "7" and a "3" noted. So the next bet is a second 2 times 3 units and we win 3 units. We now have two equal figures to add - the noted "3" and the won, making a total of 6 and, when put onto the line, it looks like this: X - X - 6 - X - X- 6
We still have a "7" noted! The next bet is 2 times 6 and we lose and we cross the 6s out, completing the session. We lost the bankroll on the sequence: W - L - W - W - L - W - W - L. NO! And this is the second reason, why I prefer this way: We had the "7" noted; it's a win that has not been used so, in fact, we lost "only" 13 units. This means that sometimes the line can be completely crossed out but there are more than 20 units noted and the net result is actually positive.
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Two Dozen Labouchere System is a modified version of a core system named Labouchere System. It is an extraordinarily cautious system, which brings you measurable profits and fun along with keeping your capital safe. Let’s get to the point.

How to play:
a)      At first you have to write down a series of numbers of any length such as 1-2-3-4-5 etc.
b)      Your stake always responds to the sum of the first and the last number on your list, in our example it equals 6 (1 + 5 = 6)
c)      You pick any 2 dozens of the 3 available (1-12, 13-24, 25-36) and bet only on two of them!
d)     You bet 6 chips each on dozen 2 (13-24) and 6 chips on dozen 3 (25-36)
e)      If you win, you cross out two numbers, one from each side. In this example these numbers are 1 and 5 (2, 3 and 4 remain). Thus, the new stake equals 6 as well (2 + 4 = 6)
f)       If you lose, you write down the stake you lost and you add it to your number sequence. Since you lost both of your dozen bets, you add double 6 to the list, which now looks as follows: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6. The new stake equals 7 (1 + 6 = 7).
g)      You proceed analogically, i.e. you cross out two numbers each time you win and write down two numbers each time you lose.
h)     The system ends the moment there are no numbers left on your list.

As you can see from this example Two Dozen Labouchere System is very straightforward and your bets cover 24 out of 37 fields (as shown below)! It allows the Player to stay in game for a long time, even without sizable capital. Appropriate staking plan reduces the risk of losing your money, making roulette even more pleasant experience!
EDIT: I seemed to have lost my source for the 2nd method, but it involved dividing parts of the sequence by 2 or something along those lines.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 12:13:04 PM by falkor »


 

falkor

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2014, 12:24:54 PM »
The source for the other Double Dozen Labby was actually this site, but I don't think it's the Reverse version that I really wanted guidance on; nevertheless on initial inspection it seems different to the other method (quoted) above, so the question might be: which is the correct version of standard Double Dozen Labby that we could look to reverse/engineer? How might we go about doing it? Or did Mr Oops totally get it right?
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Let's try to apply it on Dozens. We bet one Dozen. One dozen normaly hits once
every 3 roulette spins. Also, because the payout of the dozen is 2 times our
bet, a win recoups two losses. We want to recoup more losses with a win, say 4
losses. We apply the Labouchere by adding the last 4 numbers of our sequence and
dividing by 2 (because the payout on dozens is double our bet).
 Example:
 1,2,3
 bet: (1+2+3)/2=3
 lose, add 3 to the end
 1,2,3,3
 bet: (1+2+3+3)/2= 5 (rounding up)
 lose, add the 5 to the end
 1,2,3,3,5
 bet: (2+3+3+5)/2= 7 (rounding up)
 lose, add the 7 to the end
 1,2,3,3,5,7
 bet: (3+3+5+7)/2=9
 lose, add 9 to the end
 1,2,3,3,5,7,9
 bet = (3+5+7+9)/2=12
 lose, add 12 to the end
 1,2,3,3,5,7,9,12
 bet: (5+7+9+12)/2=17 (rounding up)
 win (34 units payout since we bet a dozen), erase last 4 numbers
 1,2,3,3
 bet: (1+2+3+3)/2= 5 (rounding up)
 win (10 units)
 End game
 In 7 roulette spins, with 5 losses and 2 wins, we won 8 units. (the initial
sequence was 6 units, but we won 2 additional units from rounding up)
 Read more: Progressions and outcome sequences
EDIT: It seems this system is only playing one dozen? I'm having a bad day as you can tell, but I guess having the single dozen methods and double dozen methods on the same page can help with understanding the double one better, which is really what I am interested in here.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 12:32:37 PM by falkor »
 

falkor

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2014, 03:26:18 PM »
My initial thoughts are that Mr Oops has got the modification slightly wrong based on the problems with odd numbers and having to split the bet across 2 dozens. Let's examine the following:
2,4,6,8 (dozens) = 1,2,3,4 (even chance)
W, L (2 dozens) = W, L (even chance)
Even chance = -1
Mr Oops = -5 (-10 + the noted down 5)
Rounding down = -1
Rounding up = -3
W, W, L (2 dozens) = W, L (even chance)
Even chance = -1
Mr Oops = 0
Rounding down = 1
Rounding up = 3
W, L, W, W, L (2 dozens) = W, L, W, L (even chance)
Even chance = 0
Mr Oops = -7
Rounding down = 1
Rounding up = -1
Since we are meant to be using the Casino's money for positive progressions it would seem rounding up or rounding down would be the way to go based on the *rough* comparisons above: I would bet that rounding down after a win is more faithful in the long run.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 03:28:39 PM by falkor »
 

dobbelsteen

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2014, 09:48:44 AM »
Falkor you describe some bettingsystems . Regonize there is no system that can beat the house edge.A bettingsystem can give more pleasure. Do you visit the casino for fun I can recomment it. Any system can give a profit,when you play a small session. For excample two friends go to the casino. Friend A play red and B black.
After 100 spins the result is 1 zero 52 red and 47 black. The chance for a los and a win is 50% Has the zero fallen more than 3 times the chance for a los for both is more than 50%. This is true for every system.

The real rouletteplayer will beat the roulette. This is only possible with a good strategy. Experience, knowledge and skill is very impotant
 

mogul397

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2015, 10:11:20 PM »
people still have their ear to the ground on this one, cause I have something
to add???

Mogul
 

kav

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2015, 10:20:59 PM »
Hi and welcome mogul,

Yes, we are all ears!
 

mogul397

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2015, 10:49:08 PM »
Well I do have to day that I've drifted around several forums and that this one is
the most responsive as well as the best run and also people are very respectful.
The way a forum and conversation should take place.

So I was looking at the layout of the labby description in the post. I have my
own slant and to be honest, I find the beginning point of some labby's with generic
lists of numbers to work from a little confusing.

In a nutshell here is what I have. I think it may have some real good points and also
may have some room for another set of eyes.

You begin and play a labby as stated. The labby is blank. So you play 2 dozens with
1 unit.  You lose and now your list is 1,1,1 (2 lost plus your 1 unit profit). now you continue
from there.  Your next bet is "2" (1+1). But it is 2 on both dozen. If you win, you won
2 units and cross out the end "1"s.  Back to "1". Or add the 4 units lost, and continue
from there. (I can expand on this example later if needed).

When you win and complete the run, you start another run. And keep winning
units.

So the MATH (the good part) is the fact that you are betting 2/3 with a 66% chance
of winning, using a labby which will complete the run and win 1 unit with 50%
win rate.  A statistical advantage.

I have some other ideas on this, like juggling dozen choices or sitting out
losing streaks. But I'm wondering if some other people can generate some
interest or ideas.

Thanks

Mogul
 

kav

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2015, 11:41:43 PM »
Hello mogul and welcome to the forum.

Interesting.
To be sure we understand how you add or cross out the numbers, can you play the following sequence:

Loss Loss Loss Win Loss Win

Keep in mind that the original Labouchere for Even Chances gives a profit with an almost 33% hit rate, because it compensates two losses with a win. Things get a little more complicated with dozens.
And btw, we are talking about Labby where you increase when you lose, right? Not reverse Labby where you increase when you win.
 

mogul397

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2015, 01:21:59 AM »
Actually we are talking about a labby that resolves with 50% hit rate and
you are playing a proposition with a 66% hit rate.  This is a quick cut and
paste.  Spin 10 is one example that kind of shows it where you bet 4 units
(From spin 9) and lose. You add those losses to the end of 10 " 1,1,2,3,3,4,4"
Etc.   The later examples (up to 100) don't show explanations so the numbers
are easier to read.  There is another variation to this where, if your numbers
get too big you spread the losses out over the next 10 spins to make the
bet amounts smaller.

Spin   Number   Dozen   Bet on Dozen   Bet on Dozen   W/L   Betting Scheme   Explanation
1   24   2                
2   18   2                No two different Dozens yet.
3   31   3               Your next bet on Dozens 2 and 3
4   6   1   2   3   L   1 1 1   Dozen 1 comes up, you lose, you write down 1 (that you wish to win at the end of the run) and 1 1 the two 1 units that you have lost on the 2 dozens
5   27   3   1   3   W   1   Now you bet on 1+1 (the first and last numbers on your betting scheme) thus 2 units on each dozen 1 and 3, you win your bet, so you cancel the 2 units you won (the first and the last 1 from spin 4) and you are left with  1.
6   24   2   1   3   L   1 1 1   You bet 1 unit on each dozen 1 and 3, you lose the bet and append the lost 1 and 1 unit at the end of the betting scheme.
7   8   1   2   3   L   1 1 1 2 2   Now, you bet the sum of the first and last numbers of the betting scheme in spin 6 (1+1=2), thus 2 units on each dozen 2 and 3.  You lose this bet and write the lost 2 units twice (since you were betting them twice) at the end of the betting scheme.
8   16   2   1   2   W   1 1 2   Now you bet 1+2 (the sum of the first and last numbers of your betting scheme in spin 7), thus 3 units on each dozen 1 and 2.  You win the bet and cancel the 3 units that you won (the first 2 and the last 2 in your betting scheme) and you are left with 1 1 2.
9   26   3   1   2   L   1 1 2 3 3   Now you bet 1+2 or 3 units on each dozen 1 and 2.  You lose the bet and you write the two 3’s you lost at the end of the betting scheme.
10   10   1   3   2   L   1 1 2 3 3 4 4   Now you bet 1+3 or 4 units on each dozen 3 and 2 (the last 2 different ones).  You lose your bet and you append the two 4’s at the end of the betting scheme.
11   31   3   1   3   W   1 2 3 3 4   Now you bet 1+4= 5 units on each dozen 1 and 3.  You win this bet and cancel the 5 units you won (or the 1 and 4) from your betting scheme and you are left with 1 2 3 3 4
12   5   1   1   3   W   2 3 3   You bet 1+4 or 5 units on each dozen 1 and 3 – you win and cancel the 1 and 4 – you are left with 2 3 3.
13   11   1   1   3   W   3   You bet 2+3 or 5 units on each dozen 1 and 3, you win the bet and cancel the 2 and 3 you won.  You are left with 3.
14   29   3   1   3   W   End of run 1   Now you bet 3 units on each dozen 1 and 3 (same two dozens, since you won the previous bet), you win the bet, get 3 units and cancel the last 3 on your scheme.  Your profit for this run is 1 unit, the one you wrote up front, the one you wish to win.
15   22   2   1   3   L   1 1 1   
16   18   2   2   3   W   1   
17   28   3   2   3   W   End of run 2   
18   00   0   2   3   L   1 1 1   
19   4   1   2   3   L   1 1 1 2 2   
20   22   2   1   3   L   1 1 1 2 2 3 3   
21   21   2   2   1   W   1 1 2 2 3   
22   3   1   2   1   W   1 2 2   
23   1   1   2   1   W   2   
24   4   1   2   1   W   End of run 3   
25   9   1   2   1   W   End of run 4   
26   3   1   2   1   W   End of run 5   
27   28   3   2   1   L   1 1 1   
28   32   3   3   1   W   1   
29   9   1   3   1   W   End of run 6   
30   35   3   3   1   W   End of run 7   
31   20   2   3   1   L   1 1 1   
32   22   2   2   3   W   1   
33   20   2   2   3   W   End of run 8   
34   31   3   2   3   W   End of run 9   
35   36   3   2   3   W   End of run 10   
36   11   1   2   3   L   1 1 1   
37   19   2   1   3   L   1 1 1 2 2   
38   22   2   2   1   W   1 1 2   
39   13   2   2   1   W   1   
40   2   1   2   1   W   End of run 11   
41   21   2   2   1   W   End of run 12   
42   35   3   2   1   L   1 1 1   
43   13   2   3   2   W   1   
44   12   1   3   2   L   1 1 1   
45   00   0   1   2   L   1 1 1 2 2   
46   20   2   1   2   W   1 1 2   
47   15   2   1   2   W   1   
48   12   1   1   2   W   End of run 13   
49   25   3   1   2   L   1 1 1   
50   8   1   3   1   W   1   
51   10   1   3   1   W   End of run 14   
52   0   0   3   1   L   1 1 1   
53   30   3   3   1   W   1   
54   4   1   3   1   W   End of run 15   
55   13   2   3   1   L   1 1 1   
56   9   1   2   1   W   1   
57   31   3   2   1   L   1 1 1   
58   4   1   3   1   W   1   
59   34   3   3   1   W   End of run 16   
60   31   3   3   1   W   End of run 17   
61   1   1   3   1   W   End of run 18   
62   8   1   3   1   W   End of run 19   
63   00   0   3   1   L   1 1 1   
64   1   1   3   1   W   1   
65   35   3   3   1   W   End of run 20   
66   28   3   3   1   W   End of run 21   
67   24   2   3   1   L   1 1 1   
68   11   1   2   3   L   1 1 1 2 2   
69   5   1   1   2   W   1 1 2   
70   33   3   1   2   L   1 1 2 3 3   
71   14   2   3   1   L   1 1 2 3 3 4 4   
72   17   2   2   3   W   1 2 3 3 4   
73   3   1   2   3   L   1 2 3 3 4 5 5   
74   32   3   1   2   L   1 2 3 3 4 5 5 6 6   
75   6   1   3   1   W   2 3 3 4 5 5 6   
76   34   3   3   1   W   3 3 4 5 5   
77   2   1   3   1   W   3 4 5   
78   0   0   3   1   L   3 4 5 8 8   
79   30   3   3   1   W   4 5 8   
80   30   3   3   1   W   5   
81   6   1   3   1   W   End of run 22   
82   8   1   3   1   W   End of run 23   
83   36   3   3   1   W   End of run 24   
84   19   2   3   1   L   1 1 1   
85   21   2   2   3   W   1   
86   18   2   2   3   W   End of run 25   
87   13   2   2   3   W   End of run 26   
88   13   2   2   3   W   End of run 27   
89   11   1   2   3   L   1 1 1   
90   00   0   1   2   L   1 1 1 2 2   
91   13   2   1   2   W   1 1 2   
92   6   1   1   2   W   1   
93   32   3   1   2   L   1 1 1   
94   4   1   3   1   W   1   
95   17   2   3   1   L   1 1 1   
96   20   2   2   1   W   1   
97   0   0   2   1   L   1 1 1   
98   20   2   2   1   W   1   
99   9   1   2   1   W   End of run 28   
100   12   1   2   1   W   End of run 29   29 runs profit 29 units.
 

mogul397

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2015, 01:31:05 AM »
I think that, other than the fact that playing two dozens is more heavily leveraged,
and also that you have 66% win rate in your favor, the pendulum.

This was part of what sparked the interest in me that bet selection could be
just as important as money management. Like skipping losing streaks, for
example... Once in a while, after a killer  win streak the bow is drawn and
ready to unload some losses that have built up.
 

mogul397

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2015, 01:40:04 AM »
This is off this subject a little bit, but on another note I had been looking at the
notion of creating bets that would work as advertised. In other words even
props that came out even with flat bets.  I actually tracked this at a craps
table and of course look at roulette numbers. My idea was to determine ground
zero if I could. Much like the example I love where Kung Fu has spears thrown at
him. His strategy is to actually get in the path of the spear, so he knows where it's
going, and not flailing around. Then deflecting it.

It kind of works with a small deviation over a small session. Basically "next to last"
essentially traps all streaks and chops.  The doubles are the one that kills it.  From there,
do an extended progression. Not by the win/loss, but by the variant. When you get to -3,
say, bet 2 units. Etc.  To recoup. Then continue.

 

kav

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2015, 02:56:48 AM »
Now I perfectly understand your 2 dozen Labby.
Yes it needs just a 50% win rate to succeed.
Seems good to me. I also like your bet selection of the last two dozens.
 

dobbelsteen

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2015, 02:45:29 PM »
On my blog I have given a bet on double dozes. Try to find the trigger. It is an occurence that often is seen.
Such triggers is nearly a 100% chance.
 

mogul397

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2015, 04:27:15 PM »
How do I find your blog? Is it in the forum or separate?
100% sounds good!!!!

Can you direct me please?  I find in these forums that an awful lot
is assumed about everyone knowing who people are and their way around.

Also, is there a feature in this forum of getting notified about replies?

Thanks

Mogul
 

kav

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Re: Double Dozen Reverse Labby and beyond - in depth
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2015, 05:03:04 PM »
That's dobbel's blog
http://rouletteforum.roulette30.com/index.php/topic,177.75.html
but I don't know to which post exactly is he referring to.He may post a link to the specific post.