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Author Topic: Can the Spinner control the Ball?  (Read 4040 times)

Romn.Paras

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Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« on: April 20, 2016, 02:37:34 AM »
Hello friends. I want to thank you all for such a wonderful discussion on the last topic. I do want to say that we don't need to get personal. We are not competing against other players we are competing against ourselves. We each have experiences that are different from one another. I want to see you all succeed in your journey whatever it is.

This topic I have posted once before and I decided to revisit it.  Can the spinner control the ball?

Can the spinner control the ball for the advantage of either the house or the player? Many people think he can but most believe he cannot.

At first glance it does seem possible that this can happen. A man could do almost what he wanted with a roulette wheel after years of practice......

1.) If the brass Arrangements known as obstacles were removed from the woodwork of the inside of the wheel.
2.) If he were allowed to spin as he chose

But it is just the two"IFs" which makes all the difference.

In the first place whenever the ball comes in contact with one of the little obstacles all the throwers calculations are bound to be upset and this is probably what happens more than 3 times out of 5.

In the second place if you leave the obstacles out of the question all together in order to attain any great precision it would be necessary for the spinner

1.) To start from the exact spot he required
2. ) to spin the wheel in the same direction and the ball in the same direction every time.
3. ) to spin with exactly the same speed every turn.

Even after all these provisions , There are rules in the Casino.

1. The spinner is bound to start the Wheel from the place where the ball last rested.
2. He is bound to spin the wheel first to the right and throw the ball to the left and then the wheel to the left throwing the ball to the right and to continue changing regularly every coup.
3. He is forbidden to spin the wheel and the ball very gently and if at any time he is observed to be spinning slower than regulations permit, the house directs him to spin again.
4. The spinner is changed about every half hour so that his hand has very little time to acquire the necessary mechanical precision.

In any case and even in the most favorable conditions I am perfectly certain that a spinner can not spin a particular number or be sure of making the ball to  land near it; and the very strongest argument of all to support this theory is that if he could the house would not exist very long.

Any man who had this gift would soon be able to realize a fortune by arranging with friends outside to come and play when it was his turn to spin.

So in my opinion it seems pretty conclusive that it is not possible for the spinner to throw within three points of any given number with any certainty; but another question comes up which is. " can he avoid any given number?"

What do you think? I would be interested to hear your point of view on this topic.



 
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UK-21

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2016, 06:57:01 AM »
Some years back I met a lady who was a croup in the Playboy club in London when she was young (the original one closed in the early eighties). She told me that she, and all of her long serving colleagues, could hit a sector of the track on demand, and frequently did so where they were receiving unwelcome attention from any of the patrons, and caused them to consistently lose so they moved on somewhere else. I listened politely, but frankly was extremely sceptical - and still am when I hear or read such claims. There are just two many factors that'll affect the outcome of where the ball finally comes to rest. Added to this, the low profile of modern starburst wheels, with dimples for the ball to rest in rather than slots separated with frets, means that the most minor amount of energy left in the ball can cause it to travel a fair further distance - in contrast to older wheels where the frets will absorb this and keep the ball safely within the slot.

I'm sure there are croups who've developed a degree of consistency so that they can hit a fairly small sector of the track, and it's become their party trick, but I think they'll be few and very far apart. Just my opinion though.
 
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Reyth

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2016, 09:53:57 AM »
My guess is in the 80's the fret system was not advanced as it is today and such sectoring was actually possible and quite a believable thing.
 

ernroo1

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2016, 10:53:36 AM »
My guess is in the 80's the fret system was not advanced as it is today and such sectoring was actually possible and quite a believable thing.

Im sure thats what people said in the 80's about the 60's. Humans always think they are living in a smarter time than the past ROFL.
 

Reyth

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2016, 11:53:51 AM »
My guess is in the 80's the fret system was not advanced as it is today and such sectoring was actually possible and quite a believable thing.

Im sure thats what people said in the 80's about the 60's. Humans always think they are living in a smarter time than the past ROFL.

Actually what I am speaking about is those little metal blockers that go around the wheel between where the slots are and where the ball rolls around; in the 80's I think there were not as many of them/they were not as well designed and so it made sectoring possible.

Just my opinion though from the very little I have read.
 
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kav

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2016, 01:57:17 PM »
This is a very interesting topic and related to the topic: Is it possible to predict where the ball will land?

My opinion is it would be extremely hard, but never say never.
After all it is hard to run 100meters in under 10 seconds but a few people have managed it.
 
 

Romn.Paras

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2016, 02:25:48 PM »
There are some very good points you all make. Each one of them is a factor on deciding if it is possible or not.

So then let me ask, if a spinner could hit sections of a wheel fairly consistently , do you think it's possible that they could hit any of the even chance bets consistently? That would be my approach to counter a spinner who could hit sections of a wheel.

Do you think it is possible for a spinner to hit a color consistently or any other EC for any length of time?

My guess is that it would be a lot harder to hit an even chance bet more consistently than a section of a wheel.

What do you think?
 

UK-21

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2016, 06:37:19 PM »
I reviewed a book last year called Get the edge at roulette, which was dedicated to many things, sector tracking, dealer signatures, consistent spinning actions, modern wheel construction ec. It covered how it was possible to play with an advantage (that outweighed the disadvantage of the pay table) if you could spot and take advantage of a consistent dealer action in conjunction with an older wheel Although not a live link I've linked to the page here (to save pasting the whole thing in):

(www).uk-21.org/get_the_edge_at_roulette.shtml.

I think it would be difficult to come to any firm conclusions around any such advantage without a raft of historic data to analyse, but in theory it's there  -  if, say, you covered a tight sector of six numbers straight up, and consistently got a result once every five spins the return would be 20% - worth giving the day job up for. Problem is there are just too many reasons why it won't go to plan.
 

scepticus

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2016, 07:31:51 PM »
I have read the book you mention UK -  LOL!

The  Advantage Players swear by this method -  that the dealer / croupier unwittingly lands in a particular section of the wheel much more than it’s Expectation. Most physicists and mathematicians think this is more  likely to be  Variance at work.

 
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kav

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2016, 07:41:08 PM »
This is the most comprehensive article I've read about dealer's signature:
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/roulettesteeringorsectionshooting.htm
Verdict: both opinions are debatable
 

Reyth

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2016, 08:06:08 PM »
Ya Kav it was that article that made up my mind that modern wheels preclude the ability for a dealer to sector; specifically how dealers that USED TO be able to sector NOW no longer can. ;)
 
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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2016, 06:07:05 AM »
This is the most comprehensive article I've read about dealer's signature.
Verdict: both opinions are debatable

For those who haven't heard of him, Arnold Snyder is a highly regarded blackjack card counter and advantage player, who is a member of a very select club of similars (Blackjack Hall of Fame), many of whom are no longer with us. I remember when he published his theories around roulette being a "beatable game" in the casino, and he lost a lot of cred amongst the AP community when he did so.

The mod of the blackjacktheforum.com stated, all of this stuff is ". . . on the edge of AP", and I agree with him.

Here's the link to a discussion on a similar topic if anyone's interested:

blackjacktheforum.com/showthread.php?32221-Professioal-Roulette-Prediction-Laurance-Scott
I have an open mind on the matter, and would be happy for someone to prove to me that they can achieve an above EV win-rate as a result of applying such techniques (and consistently turn a profit from doing so), and it not being just down to luck - and sorry, that'll be over a few thousand spins and not a couple of sessions.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 09:45:11 PM by kav »
 

petespin

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2016, 02:38:00 PM »
recently i ve spoken with an very experienced  AP guy and he told me that defenitily they can do that , more practice,much more better results, especially in high rollers roulette tables dealers can easily  hit even a single number ! :o
 

Ringmaster

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 02:00:29 AM »
Some people live on a Fantasy Island, don't they!
The only way a Dealer can "hit" a single number deliberately, is to stop the wheel, and physically place the ball in that pocket!!!
HOWEVER, He/She could repeatedly "hit" a number or sector in what appears to be a predetermined decision, and have that misinterpreted as so-called "skilled-target-shooting", and the "proof" then passes into the archives of folklore as fact!
The MYTH is further qualified, when the Dealer announces or otherwise signifies, (prior or post spin) that the result was/is predictable and the result of his/her ball/wheel control.
In truth, if the Dealer (a priori), announced the predicted result, then actually "hit" the exact number he forecast, it is still a random coincidence,  that is as much of a surprize to the Dealer, as it is to anyone else present at the event.
I have personally seen this EXACT situation occur many times during the last Fifty or more years, and have often used a qualification response to burst the developing "incredibility" bubble, "Bravo, Amazing, -Could you do that AGAIN?-(but let us get our wagers in place first)
What a predicament our Croupier is in, because he knows, the  Inspector knows, the Pit Boss knows, and I know, that the chances of him repeating his random prediction result is exactly the same as prior to the previous result, 36 to 1, minus the 2.7 percent for a single number result. -R.
 
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Romn.Paras

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Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2016, 06:01:19 PM »
During my trip to Las Vegas I made it a point to talk to each dealer that I played against.  I asked each of them this question.  Their answers were pretty interesting.  They all agreed that they cannot control where the ball is going to land. They pointed out how the obstacles in the wheel make it difficult to do that. Many of them said they could try, but the obstacles make it extremely difficult.  One of the dealers I spoke with in Las Vegas said that if a number came up more than 3 times in a row, the dealer would be pulled from the game because the casino would suspect something was wrong. He said it is very rare to have a number come up more than 3 times in a row.

My favorite answer when I asked a croupier this question he said " If I could do that, do you honestly think I would be sitting here doing this. I would have already been retired by now." 

I just wanted to share my first hand experience with you all about actually having spoken to about 8 different dealers in 4 days.  Their answers were all pretty much the same. 

 
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