Author Topic: Esperanto  (Read 591 times)

Bayes

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Esperanto
« on: January 08, 2017, 12:45:04 PM »
I've always admired people who are fluent in languages other than their native tongue, but it requires a huge amount of study and practice to become fluent. I suppose I'm lucky that my native language is English, but still, 90% of the world doesn't speak it, even though it's regarded as an "international" language.

One of my new year resolutions is to learn another language. I had attempted to learn German some years ago, because it's apparently the most widely spoken language in Europe (after English) so I signed up at duolingo and started the German course. However, I soon remembered why I gave up learning German before. Any national language is hard because the grammar is irregular and there are so many special cases which you just have to learn by rote (in German there are 3 genders and there is no obvious pattern to tell you which noun belongs to which gender). Often the pronunciation is different according to the word, and again there are no fixed rules. Then there are all the idioms - more phrases you just have to learn by rote.

Then I found Esperanto. This is a language which was invented 130 years ago and was deliberately designed to be easy to learn. Apparently, other than Esperanto the easiest language for a native English speaker to learn is Italian which takes about 1000 hours. But Esperanto only takes 150 hours! It's also much easier to learn for speakers of other languages.

This is because the pronunciation and grammar is very regular and there are no exceptions which you have to learn by heart. It also sounds quite attractive (a sort of cross between Italian and Russian).

Is it worth learning? After all, what use is a language which hardly anyone knows? Well actually, quite a lot of people do know it, although they are rather thinly scattered across the world. Since the appearance of the WWW, there has been a surge of interest in the language (nearly 700,000 learners on duolingo alone, and that's only the English speakers) for obvious reasons.

The more I discover about Esperanto and its culture the more I like it, and it really is easy to learn. For more info see here (select your native language from the drop-down box in the top right corner).


 
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Sheridan44

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2017, 01:45:27 PM »
This appeals to me Bayes. Quite cool. I've always favored taking the roads "less traveled".
 
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Jesper

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2017, 01:56:30 PM »
Esperanto is simple and regular, but it is based on Roman languages. And all languages when they are common use to live theire own life, and change. English is not the same all over the world. It may suit the Western world.
The grammar in German is like English were long time ago. My language like English has a simple gramme, but that allways has  a cost in syntax, and vague statements which is understood in the local culture. English is like Spanish widely spoken not due to theire internal qualities, rather history of dominant periods.

Chinese is one of the simplest language in the world, if we in Europe had theire system of writing, We could read the newspapers from allmost all  countries in Europe and America, but still not talk. In China they can read  but not understand theire "dialects" which we should regard as languages.

In an alphabet spelling we can figure out how it sounds, but not easy the meaning. In a Chinese character we can see the meaning, but harder to know how it sounds.
 
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kav

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2017, 06:56:10 PM »
Chinese is one of the simplest language in the world,
Think so? :-)
 

Bayes

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2017, 06:57:22 PM »
Hi Sheridan,

This appeals to me Bayes. Quite cool. I've always favored taking the roads "less traveled".

Agreed, there's something cool about Esperanto. Those who know it are very idealistic and passionate about it. It hasn't really taken off in the way that advocates hoped (Esperanto means "one who hopes") because language dominance has usually followed those nations or cultures who had power and influence (and have invested in teaching their languages because it means easy international trade - and therefore money). Greek used to be spoken widely, then when the Romans had their empire it was Latin, then later French, and now, because of the British empire followed by the influence of U.S culture, it's English. Maybe Chinese next? It's surprising that Esperanto got anywhere considering it belongs to no one nation.

Quote
Esperanto is simple and regular, but it is based on Roman languages. And all languages when they are common use to live theire own life, and change. English is not the same all over the world. It may suit the Western world.

Chinese is one of the simplest language in the world, if we in Europe had theire system of writing, We could read the newspapers from allmost all countries in Europe and America, but still not talk. In China they can read  but not understand theire "dialects" which we should regard as languages.

Apparently Esperanto is quite big in China, although it's probably harder to learn for Orientals than Europeans, but not nearly so hard as English. Not many national languages are logical, but Esperanto is.

English must be a nightmare for foreign students.

https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/learning-english-hard.html

Anyway, here's a taste of some Esperanto in music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kibIM8WjAMo
 
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Jesper

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2017, 09:50:57 PM »
The problem with some language is theire age, the sound changes much faster than the spelling. French and English has spellings which make the word more than Chinese characters than alphabetic, you must know how to say, it is just few clues in the spellings.
English and Swedish are not too far from each other, there are many historical reasons, like the Vikings, The influence of classical languages as Latin, and related to Saxon/Germanic languages. Still the problem is we spell so different,
as we use most of the letters for sound, our spelling misstakes in English are omitting letters.

In the recent 40 years we have borrowed a lot of worlds, and young people speak sometimes better English than Swedish.

There are some rules we can use to find out the common words.

In English there are both T and Th sound, which was in Swedish long time ago, now it is only the T.
Those sounds have been  Z and D in German.   We say  Tåg to Train but it is Zug in German.
We use Tre and Tio for Three and Ten, which in German are  Drei and Zehn. There are hundreds of words
which follow rules. Like Think in English Tänka in Swedish and Denken in German.

There are Esperanto speakers all over the world, not to many so you daily meet any, They are quite  few in China yes, if you count on numbers not share of the population, everthing have to be a big number among 1.5 billion.

 

MrPerfect.

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2017, 11:46:00 PM »
 Not directed in no one personally, just beware.
  Esperanto is synthetic language.
If we look into human brain as hardware, language will perform paper of software.
  In last century many " original " languages soffered so many changes, that majority of population walking the street are at the state of cretins.
 What is a correlation between language castration and mind incapacity? Very easy. Mind is a product of the language, it's our ability to structure ideas in form of words. If words by their structure mean nothing, mind become populated with meaningless ideas.
  Especially for these who like Bayes, native inglish speaker... compare your " modern" langauge to the one of Shekspeare . In his time, there wasn't so many degenerates , children have had no problems with spelling words and no one cared to have a dictionary to understand meaning of the words originated in native language.
    Moral: instead of bothering with learning something useless,  learn c++, or at least java. It will improve your roulette game as well.
 

gizmotron

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 01:00:56 AM »
    Moral: instead of bothering with learning something useless,  learn c++, or at least java. It will improve your roulette game as well.

Learning to program is great. C++ is OK but it's a third generation language. There are lots of rapid development languages that are easier to learn. I've developed in C++, C, Visual Basic, Real Basic, and a few of the X-Talk languages. If you don't plan to work as a programmer you might want to go with the best X-Talk language, LiveCode. It uses human speech as it's syntax. It's available in many native speaking languages too. It's a real write once run anywhere development language too. That was the promise of Java that never really worked well.
 
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MrPerfect.

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 10:50:58 AM »
    Moral: instead of bothering with learning something useless,  learn c++, or at least java. It will improve your roulette game as well.

Learning to program is great. C++ is OK but it's a third generation language. There are lots of rapid development languages that are easier to learn. I've developed in C++, C, Visual Basic, Real Basic, and a few of the X-Talk languages. If you don't plan to work as a programmer you might want to go with the best X-Talk language, LiveCode. It uses human speech as it's syntax. It's available in many native speaking languages too. It's a real write once run anywhere development language too. That was the promise of Java that never really worked well.
Bravo! Gizmotron.  That's what l call " multilingual" person.
 

Bayes

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2017, 11:21:38 AM »
Not directed in no one personally, just beware.
  Esperanto is synthetic language.

    Moral: instead of bothering with learning something useless,  learn c++, or at least java. It will improve your roulette game as well.

I think you may have missed the point of Esperanto. The fact that it's "synthetic" or "artificial" is a feature, not a bug.  ;) It was specifically designed to be an easy to learn second language to facilitate international communication ; national languages like English, Spanish, or Mandarin are not easy to master. I spent 6 years learning French in high school and can order a beer, but not much more.

Esperanto is egalitarian because it's no-one's native language (not quite true because there are native esperanto speakers). When conversing with someone in a language which isn't your native tongue, you are in a subordinate or inferior position because the native speaker always has the advantage. Speaking esperanto means you're on a level playing field and are equal, linguistically speaking.

Being "useful" is subjective and relative. If the criteria for usefulness is the number of people who speak it then what about languages like Icelandic, or Welsh, or Basque? I doubt whether speakers of those languages would be impressed at them being called "useless". (And more people know esperanto than those languages). Some people learn esperanto for the Pasporta Servo; it's possible to travel around the world very cheaply by staying with fellow esperantists.

As for C++ and Java, I certainly wouldn't recommend them as first programming languages because they force you to use OOP which is massively overrated IMO (there's no evidence that OOP results in better programs, in fact the reverse is true. The complexity of OOP means you tend to get more bugs).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 11:23:40 AM by Bayes »
 

Bebediktus

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2017, 12:00:40 PM »
I think you may have missed the point of Esperanto. The fact that it's "synthetic" or "artificial" is a feature, not a bug.  ;) It was specifically designed to be an easy to learn second language to facilitate international communication ; national languages like English, Spanish, or Mandarin are not easy to master. I spent 6 years learning French in high school and can order a beer, but not much more.

I learned esperanto 30 years back. Learning takes about two weeks and i can  talk , not perfect not about all but can. Then i was member of soome group of esperantists. Al was good  and easy , but practical use from all that is small. Mathematical professor or phyloshof can talk only with equal to himself with other - simply will be not interesting for him. The same situattion is with esperanto. That is more fun.

Se vi parolas pri ruleto kaj Esperanto, la Esperanto povas esti kiel speco de kodo en terminoj de gi sed por ke aliaj miskomprenis. Bone ke se vi volas instigi la teamon veti kie ... Mi estis en granda Esperanto forgesi, sed mi povas skribi, en kio mi skribis, tion mi turnis eble 2-3 vortojn kiel ili sonas kaj ke post 30 jaroj de abstemio lingvo ....

Ah one benefit for me is  that Esperanto helped me understand Spanish and that gave me some benefit in poker when i played in Barselona.....simply i understand something what others not wantedt that i will understand....
 

Bayes

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2017, 01:43:09 PM »
Se vi parolas pri ruleto kaj Esperanto, la Esperanto povas esti kiel speco de kodo en terminoj de gi sed por ke aliaj miskomprenis. Bone ke se vi volas instigi la teamon veti kie ... Mi estis en granda Esperanto forgesi, sed mi povas skribi, en kio mi skribis, tion mi turnis eble 2-3 vortojn kiel ili sonas kaj ke post 30 jaroj de abstemio lingvo ....


mojosa!

Ja, kelkfoje povas esti avantago ne komprenos en kazino...

Eble ni povas havi esperanto sekcio tie?  ;D

De kie vi estas?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 01:44:54 PM by Bayes »
 

gizmotron

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2017, 03:48:45 PM »
As for C++ and Java, I certainly wouldn't recommend them as first programming languages because they force you to use OOP which is massively overrated IMO (there's no evidence that OOP results in better programs, in fact the reverse is true. The complexity of OOP means you tend to get more bugs).

When the concept of Object Oriented Programming first started it was all about reusable objects that could process specific data without having to rewrite that process over and over again. It was a reusable functionality created by the programmer. This was the answer to making a third generation programming language act like a fourth generation language. It's process is carried out by special creations and access processes that are somewhat extraneous.

In a fourth generation language like LiveCode you can create functionality that is automatically recognized throughout the program while it is running. In fact you can create your own programming language with custom made functionality. This makes creating roulette sims very easy.  Many tasks that take several lines of code for setting permissions in a third generation language can be executed with one line of code accessing your custom functionality and sometimes just writing it without bothering to access anything. You can create memory space while creating a container to hold it, a variable, just by including it in single lined command. All this is done in X-Talk by just saying it. Example: "put random(37) into spinResults1" From there you can use spinResults1 all throughout the object, which could be a mouse click, or globally all through the entire application if you declare it to be universally available. This is done by having a line in your code that says "global spinResults1."

LiveCode is free as Open Source. For ease of use it tells you syntax error correction when you try to apply it. It also allows you to try functionality inside the development environment while you write it. It shows you and tells you why a single line of code does not execute so that you can fix it. There's also a dictionary of functions and commands that all have examples so that you can copy and paste them into your code as examples. You can comment your code & example as you write it, so that you can tell yourself what it is supposed to do, line by line. That company gives free instructions along with a very active learning forum.
 
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Bebediktus

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Re: Esperanto
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2017, 04:26:25 PM »

De kie vi estas?

Mi estas de Litovio. Eble vi scias ke Zamenhof longa tempo vivis en Litovio.
Sincere parolante mi subite skribi Esperanton malfacila :).
Sed min pro la fakto ke iu estus iu kion skribi, speciale se vi volas ke aliaj ne-komprenata tre :)