Roulette Forum

Roulette Forum => Gambling Philosophy => Topic started by: Shakuni on June 17, 2015, 09:27:59 AM

Title: Dealer's signature
Post by: Shakuni on June 17, 2015, 09:27:59 AM
Palestis

Great posts and ideas really appreciate it. Looking at the game from other side of the table, i have noticed that the dealer/croupier get stuck in the same section of the wheel sometimes like keep spinning zero section or keep spinning neighbours of zero  or orphans etc. Have you or anyone else come across such situation or have realised this. And how can you take advantage of this before they change there spin or they change the dealer....
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: BlueAngel on June 17, 2015, 09:55:51 AM

I notice this every time I'm going at the casino,it happens more or less with every dealer,if the dealer wants it or not I cannot tell for sure.
If you see this then bet the same sector immediately for 2 times maximum.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: GameNeverOver on June 17, 2015, 11:49:48 AM
Palestis

Great posts and ideas really appreciate it. Looking at the game from other side of the table, i have noticed that the dealer/croupier get stuck in the same section of the wheel sometimes like keep spinning zero section or keep spinning neighbours of zero  or orphans etc. Have you or anyone else come across such situation or have realised this. And how can you take advantage of this before they change there spin or they change the dealer....

This is classic case of the famous "dealer's signature". It happens due human factors (dealers are human too and can get ill or be nervous or get bored). Dealer's signature probably occurs due to boredom: dealer wants to be somewhere else instead turning a wheel and dropping and picking balls so s/he starts to spin the wheel on automation: takes the ball, (unconsciously) waits for a number to come near his arm holding the ball and when the number is there he let the ball spin, always with the same force. That's why sometimes there are showings like these: 3,35,32,0,3,32,26,15. If you take a look, you'll notice that all these numbers are placed in the same sector.

This is not something that is happening all the time and mostly the reason for this kind of behavior is due boredom..and boredom comes and goes so you can't base your playing on it.
but this conclusion rises another important question: if the dealer can do it because he is bored, who can stop him doing it if he is motivated to do it?
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: palestis on June 17, 2015, 12:56:46 PM
Palestis

Great posts and ideas really appreciate it. Looking at the game from other side of the table, i have noticed that the dealer/croupier get stuck in the same section of the wheel sometimes like keep spinning zero section or keep spinning neighbours of zero  or orphans etc. Have you or anyone else come across such situation or have realised this. And how can you take advantage of this before they change there spin or they change the dealer....
Yes it happens all the time. And they call it dealer's signature.
The problem is that by the time you notice it, it can be too late. What can also happen is for a dealer to have a spinning consistency in CW (clock-wise) spinning, but not in CCW. Or the other way around. The only way to take advantage of it, is to bet the sector the dealer is stuck on.
But since usually the dealer signature doesn't last long enough to take advantage of it, heavy betting and very few bets is recommended.
In European casinos, the dealer stops the wheel momentarily and spins it in the other direction. You can't change direction without stopping the wheel first. Then they spin the ball supposedly from above the last number spun. At least in the casinos I was playing at. If they don't start spinning form the last number spun, I have seen players getting mad and objecting.
But just because a dealer develops a signature in one table, it doesn't mean he will do the same in another table at another time.
Dealer signature doesn't always involve the same sector. It can alternate between opposite sectors.
Like zero neighbors and 10 neighbors.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Jesper on June 17, 2015, 05:14:00 PM
My option is dealers signature is a brain spoke!  DEALER not an imperect (hardly exist) Wheel.
The ball just fall, when   gravity overcome the centrifugal forces. Allways the same speed for each ball.

This is Newtonian, modern physics make the ball oval in speedy motion, that may not influence
enough to take in account, unless the ball is Close to light speed.

The dealer make just the first step, where at the Wheel, and force at the ball at start, then it is an enormous amount of other factors,
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on June 17, 2015, 05:48:49 PM
I regard Dealer's Signature as BS.
Posts about this   all   have " assumptions " . Dealers are not highly paid  and if they could really  do that they could earn a month's pay  at least once a week by simply having  a friend bet  a particular area of the wheel whenever he gives an agreed signal.  They get bored  ? Of course they do , they're human .
I once WITNESSED a guy , betting £5 chips ,  winning  at least £3,000 when one of his numbers -31 -kept on winning and that was only when I was watching. I had been drawn to that table because a crowd of  about twenty had gathered there. The MANAGER had joined the pit boss / inspector and  he  kept changing the dealers  when they had spun only about ten spins ! The run ended and the guy played for only about 15 minutes after that having lost some of his winnings. A  lucky streak ? You bet  - but Dealer's Signature ? Nope !
I also WITNESSED a table where 2 had followed 1 . Several of us joked that number 3 would follow. It did ! As did 4 , 5, and 6  ! But not seven . None of us bet any of those 4 winners . Well, it couldn't happen , could it ?
Sh*t  happens  !  Get used to it .
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Real on June 17, 2015, 06:23:35 PM
Quote
I once WITNESSED a guy , betting £5 chips ,  winning  at least £3,000 when one of his numbers -31 -kept on winning and that was only when I was watching. I had been drawn to that table because a crowd of  about twenty had gathered there. The MANAGER had joined the pit boss / inspector and  he  kept changing the dealers  when they had spun only about ten spins !-Scepticus

 Scepticus,

Why do you suppose that they kept changing the dealer?  Hmmmm.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on June 17, 2015, 08:36:24 PM
Real
So ALL dealers have the SAME signature ?At the SAME time ? At the SAME table ?
Get real Real  !
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: BlueAngel on June 17, 2015, 11:12:53 PM
Quote
Dealer signature doesn't always involve the same sector. It can alternate between opposite sectors.
Like zero neighbors and 10 neighbors. Palestis

You are very right Jim,I remember once at Loutraki (1 of the 2 major Athenian casinos) were a female croupier spun almost every time about 5 to 7 pockets from the last spun number in CW direction,it was so persistent that I and a couple of other players on the table make good money till they have replaced her with another dealer and he was not so predictable.

Quote
Why do you suppose that they kept changing the dealer?  Hmmmm. Real

This is a very good question! If the casinos didn't have an important reason to do so,then they wouldn't do so.
I'm not saying that dealers do this in purpose,but it happens with purpose or not,that's what it matters!
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Real on June 17, 2015, 11:31:20 PM
Quote
So ALL dealers have the SAME signature ?At the SAME time ? At the SAME table ? -Scepticus

Scepticus,

What on earth are you talking about?  How could all dealers possibly have the same signature?
No Scepticus, that would be very unlikely.  It doesn't work like that.

Quote
This is a very good question! If the casinos didn't have an important reason to do so,then they wouldn't do so.
I'm not saying that dealers do this in purpose,but it happens with purpose or not,that's what it matters!

The reason they were changing dealer was to change up the playing conditions as much as possible.  It's possible that the wheel was biased, or the numbers were simply just hot. 
-Real
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on June 17, 2015, 11:50:10 PM
Real
It could simply be that the number was  " hot " as dealer after dealer found .The manager got spooked by this so changed the dealers frequently . I think that Dealer's Signature  is simply random / variance in action which is why it comes and goes .Conspiracy theorists won't agree , of course.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: palestis on June 18, 2015, 01:32:09 AM
It is human nature to try to explain strange and unusual phenomena.
In roulette when the results are clustered around a certain sector, longer than their statistical claim,
we call it "dealers signature". When in fact it could just be a simple coincidence.  The are many coincidences in roulette just as they are in real life.
In roulette that signature can be short lived or longer lived. If I was to take advantage of that dealer signature, all I have to do is bet that it will continue for one more time in the next 3 spins.
That's about it. It's no different than seeing  lots of blacks spinning out and betting that one more black will show up in the next 3 spins.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on June 18, 2015, 01:36:41 AM
Quote
Dealer signature doesn't always involve the same sector. It can alternate between opposite sectors.
Like zero neighbors and 10 neighbors. Palestis

You are very right Jim,I remember once at Loutraki (1 of the 2 major Athenian casinos) were a female croupier spun almost every time about 5 to 7 pockets from the last spun number in CW direction,it was so persistent that I and a couple of other players on the table make good money till they have replaced her with another dealer and he was not so predictable.

Quote
Why do you suppose that they kept changing the dealer?  Hmmmm. Real

This is a very good question! If the casinos didn't have an important reason to do so,then they wouldn't do so.
I'm not saying that dealers do this in purpose,but it happens with purpose or not,that's what it matters!
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on June 18, 2015, 01:41:31 AM
Not so BA
What matters is whether or not you can make use of it.
If it were really true all we need do is wait until we see it appear then start betting.That may be sometime but I think it would be less than real's 12 / 16 hour wait for his trigger.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: BlueAngel on June 18, 2015, 02:08:47 AM
Not so BA
What matters is whether or not you can make use of it.
If it were really true all we need do is wait until we see it appear then start betting.That may be sometime but I think it would be less than real's 12 / 16 hour wait for his trigger.

Regarding my experience it doesn't take time at all,the same time I'm arriving at the table,almost immediately I identify such pattern.
Like Palestis said previously,such pattern is not only to hit the same sector for a few times before moves on,a pattern could be also to have a steady movement around the wheel.
For example:last number 23,next number 1,next number 18,next number 3,next number 2...and so on.
How you can exploit such patterns is quite simple,I wouldn't bet with progression but only flat stakes up to a certain limit.
My personal limit is minus 36 units whenever it happens I'm stopping the particular bet and change to another or finish my session.
It happens but till it happens I'm winning more than 36 units.
If for example I bet for a immediate repetition of the same sector and lose the first bet,I bet the new sector,NOT the previous,I just move on to the fresh because not in every sector there are 2 or more consecutive appearances.
One very important thing to consider if you inclined in this betting method is the space/time range.
Time and space are the direct opposite,the larger the sector you are betting (more numbers) the fewer will be the time (bets/spins)
There are many ways like: 6 numbers for 6 times, 5 numbers for 7 times, 7 numbers for 5 times...and so on.
Personally I prefer the balance between time and space and this is being represented better by the 6 numbers within 6 spins.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Shakuni on June 18, 2015, 02:37:11 AM
I personnally think it got something to do with muscle memory and like GNO said boredom as well. Dealers are bored as they can have long shifts and after a while they stop paying attention to what they are doing and get into a habbit of just doing the same spin without varying the speed of the ball which they are specificlly told to do. I am not sure about if they can spin a section on purpose but some dealers after spinning for many years know exactly how many revolutions a ball gonna take around the wheel. I have noticed that because some dealers actually look at the ball slowing down in the wheel  before calling no more bets but some old timers know in there minds eye that the ball is about to drop and its time to call no more bets......
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Real on June 18, 2015, 04:19:37 AM
Quote
Real It could simply be that the number was  " hot " as dealer after dealer found .The manager got spooked by this so changed the dealers frequently . I think that Dealer's Signature  is simply random / variance in action which is why it comes and goes .Conspiracy theorists won't agree , of course.-Scepticus

Scepticus,

Actually the physics are there.  There are even demos of it where you can watch it online. 
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on June 18, 2015, 01:50:00 PM
real
repeating your  mantra "physics " does not make any conclusions a certainty.
You are a fellow human being that knows little about roulette other than wheel manufacture.
I have decided to take  Harryj 's advice and stop responding to your posts , they continually  reveal  the rantings of an  immature mind .
And I don't care if you think   that I am passing up the chance to be " educated " !

[MOD NOTE: Please watch personal pejoratives in discussion.]
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Reyth on June 25, 2015, 11:08:38 AM
Dealer's Signature.

It is obviously a phenomenon that exists and proven by youtube videos and casinos removing dealers during extreme events.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Jesper on June 25, 2015, 05:14:55 PM
Some of you own a roulette Wheel. Make something shooting at the same Power all the time.
I Think it will be hard to find the signature. Very much other factors.

Somebody may allready done such experiment?
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on June 25, 2015, 06:20:40 PM
Dealer's Signature.

It is obviously a phenomenon that exists and proven by youtube videos and casinos removing dealers during extreme events.

I don't think that it is at all obvious, Reyth. It is an interpretation of something that HAS happened and that is all. .I think it  is a variable that comes and goes , just like many others. Why is it that those who believe in the efficacy of Dealers' Signature  use it as an excuse for their losing bets .Some even wait until the ball has been spun so that  " that bloody dealer " cannot spin the ball away from their numbers.
 If a Dealer really could do it he could earn much more than his wage , couldn't he ?
Your " interpretation " is different from  mine but I think mine has more support from mathematicians than yours.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Reyth on June 25, 2015, 06:45:05 PM
I dunno.  Videos like this impress me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RldNUWT2pyY

Maybe that's not dealer signature but there is definitely something to what he is doing there...
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Shakuni on June 26, 2015, 02:39:20 AM

There are  lot of videos like this on the youtube. At the end of such videos there is always a link where they are trying to sell you some system which will help you win lot of money on roulette. In this case he is selling a system for 160 pound. Some one who have such a knowledge of the game by which he can predict the exact number like in  this video, would never make a video to show it off to the world let alone selling it to the world for 160 pound. I mean what is 100 pounds for him. In UK casinos u can bet upto 5000 pound on a straight up and 175k in one go. so doesnt make sense.
Now how is he doing that?  could be a rigged wheel or the ball and the dice he is using could be magnitised, i dont know for sure. But i know for sure if he could do what he is doing on the video in real life, he wouldnt be selling 100 bucks system on the internet
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: BlueAngel on June 26, 2015, 03:24:48 AM
What you are saying is just common sense,a video could be edited in many ways...professionals on video modification can do it seem like raw (unedited),not to seem "choppy" like amateur film after the montage.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: BlueAngel on June 26, 2015, 04:19:28 AM
This Jafko is selling roulette computers like Steve Hourmouzis.
His latest model "Pred 7" is being sold for approximately 5000 pounds.
So say you invest 5k to buy it and when you go at the casino you don't have the time to bet before the "no more bets" announcement,or even worse,they caught you cheating with the device being the evidence.
Croupiers have been instructed to indentify someone who always place bets late after the release of the ball and in such cases they would announce no more bets faster,they could even make a rule which no one is allowed to bet after the release of the ball.
As a matter of fact such rule exist in Swedish casinos.
About visual ballistic players who are writing a list with every possible combination of 3 numbers,have you ever wonder how many combination could be?? 37x37x37=50653 total combinations.
They select a wheel's diamond (deflector) and write down the number (first) which is below the ball when passes above it, they write down the number (second) when a certain number of the rotor passes the same spot (deflector), when the ball returns back to the same spot they are writing again the number (third) which is below the ball,this concludes the timing.
In order to gather 50653 needs a lot of time,that's why the spent so much time by the wheels,and this is only for 1 wheel model!!
Just imagine 50653 combinations multiplied by the amount of different wheels' models!!
So much time consuming when the casinos the only thing have to do is say no more bets fast enough!
This visual ballistic method is no cheating,but roulette devices are,but VB is not practical.
Not to mention that every 3 number combination which someone is recording is not always different,that's why one would need much more than 50653 spins in order to gather every combination of a single wheel.
But wait a minute,does it make sense that when a certain combination of three numbers produced a specific result,when the combination repeats then the result would be the same? Does it make sense?
Perhaps it could or not be the same result.
If you have doubts about these kind of issues,better live without such time consuming and security alarming activity.
There more practical ways to exploit the game,the rules are fair for everyone,the payouts could be slightly better but this doesn't mean that the game is unfair.
You may consider it as taxation on profits,not big deal if you can win.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: GameNeverOver on June 26, 2015, 08:18:34 PM
he wouldnt be selling 100 bucks system on the internet

He wouldn't sell it not for 100 but for 100 million bucks Shakuni. :) If he had this system/approach/ability/or-what's-so-ever to correctly predict the number he can easily make 160 pounds per 5 minutes visit on the casino.

Another scammer on the list..
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: GameNeverOver on June 26, 2015, 08:22:41 PM
@BlueAngel
Your logic is flawless.
It turns out that APes can't play without using computers. But guess what: using computers or other electrical devices in THE CASINOS is considered cheating (it is) and is strictly forbidden and the guys caught using one are usually banned for life.

So, everything leads us to the same conclusion and that is..
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: BlueAngel on June 27, 2015, 02:03:35 PM
But it is reasonable when the roulette device sellers are claiming that it's not illegal to use it because it doesn't affect the outcome.
What do you think?
But what really matters is not what I or you might think,but how the casinos are considering those devices.
If the legal or not depends from the manipulation (or not) of the outcomes,then someone who can roll the dice the way he/she wants (most of the times) he/she is a cheater and someone who is using a roulette computer he/she is not cheater because he/she is not influencing the results.
THIS IS QUITE A PARADOX,that's why there are minor and major "holes" inside the law.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Reyth on June 27, 2015, 02:07:17 PM
Well I guess it comes down to how a judge determines the potential penalty for a player breaking the terms & conditions of the casino.

Since judges have considered that cheating within a casino is a punishable offense and it is simple common sense that using a machine to gain an advantage over players that do not use a machine, is cheating, that using these machines should be a punishable offense.

someone who can roll the dice the way he/she wants (most of the times) he/she is a cheater

Have there been ANY cases where it has been proven that anyone is guilty (or even CAN be guilty) of this?

Unless the person is using counterfeit dice, I don't see how this could be considered cheating.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on June 27, 2015, 02:23:49 PM
It has already been established in a UK Court of Law that using " an electronic device " IS legal.
Casinos can ban you for any reason - it doesn't need to be legal.
Many years ago it was ruled , in the USA ,  that Blackjack Card Counting  WAS legal. But  casinos can still ban you.
They are not in the business of giving money away !
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Reyth on June 27, 2015, 02:28:48 PM

Aha.  Thank you!
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: GameNeverOver on June 27, 2015, 03:35:16 PM
But it is reasonable when the roulette device sellers are claiming that it's not illegal to use it because it doesn't affect the outcome.
What do you think?
But what really matters is not what I or you might think,but how the casinos are considering those devices.
If the legal or not depends from the manipulation (or not) of the outcomes,then someone who can roll the dice the way he/she wants (most of the times) he/she is a cheater and someone who is using a roulette computer he/she is not cheater because he/she is not influencing the results.
THIS IS QUITE A PARADOX,that's why there are minor and major "holes" inside the law.

I believe in what I see not what is written in the law books. :)

Ex. If pissing in public is prohibited with law but I see with my own eyes that everyone is pissing wherever they want (even in front of cops eyes) then i know that the law is actually bulls*** and not prohibiting pissing in public.
There are lots of examples like this one.

What I want to say is that I don't care what the judge said, but what I see on daily basis because on the streets the justice is different from that in the courts.

And from what I see I know that there is no casino in this world that will allow you to sit on the roulette table and use device in plain sight because they know that this thing might cost them thousands of dollars per spin that can easily get into millions per hour. See the bigger picture now? :)
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on June 27, 2015, 05:03:01 PM
OOPS  !
Made a mistake  about the USA judgement . Ken Uston won the judgement but lost it on  an appeal .
I think though, there was one in Canada . As GNO says judgements and laws  are of little use if  people don't obey them. A pity Governments don't think about this before making any more laws .   
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Reyth on June 27, 2015, 05:15:11 PM
Ya even if it was judged legal to break casino rules by using an electronic device, I would still disagree with that judgment simply because it is an unfair advantage that is generated artificially and that is not open to everyone.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: BlueAngel on June 27, 2015, 05:50:41 PM
Quote
As GNO says judgements and laws  are of little use if  people don't obey them. A pity Governments don't think about this before making any more laws .   

There are only 2 ways to follow rules and regulations:

1) By force, make people fear the punishment.

2) Willingly because they respect the law.Why someone to respect it? Because he/she has ethics, moral values and principles.

Since not all of the world is the same, some fall into the first category ,while the rest on the second.
If the desire of someone is greater than his/her principles,ethics and moral values,then they could attempt to do anything as long as they could get away with it.
This leads to the conclusion that there are actually 2 criteria;

1) What it COULD be done

2) What it SHOULD be done
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Reyth on June 27, 2015, 05:53:17 PM
Nice post!

I notice that casinos seem to be really good and finding the "what could be done" category of people...
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on June 27, 2015, 08:36:07 PM
Why DO people break the law ?Blue Angel  .Largely , it is because they don't agree with it - for whatever reason.   In the UK the prisons are bursting to overflow   - they hold more prisoners than other comparable European nations . Are we Brits more into lawbreaking than other nations or is it that our laws are more illiberal than other nations ?  One thing is clear - you cannot impose your notion of morality on others - persuasion  is necessary . The problems of betting roulette is a cakewalk compared to the minefield of lawmaking- and lawbreaking. Let's stick to roulette  !
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Bebediktus on September 04, 2015, 01:04:03 PM
I dunno.  Videos like this impress me.
Maybe that's not dealer signature but there is definitely something to what he is doing there...
Here is some answer to many things,- are for who do impression such videos, but are also theese, who do that or similar, everyday in casinos.
What you see in this video is not dealer signature, here is some trick.

But anyway - who do such trick must be enough experienced in all that....
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Ringmaster on November 11, 2015, 11:32:05 AM
  Good Morning Esteemed Ambassadors, Colonels, Captains, Majors, Principals, Graduates, Cadets and Colleagues,
Well, if you are not there, you must be more important than I am, but I always understood my limitations.
So, As I spent some time as a chirpy chippy and cadet croupier in an underground, (in more ways than one) salon prive, in London, in the mid seventies I can tell you from learning, trying and bitter experience, that no croupier can spin, influence or conjure up a result within a chosen HALF of a roulette wheel on purpose or on command, not then, not now,not ever.
Forget about croupiers shooting pre-designated sectors.
God or the Devil, could not guarantee a win at roulette, and remember Einstein, (short chap, scratched his head about stuff, bit of a whiz at numbers?
He said “The only way to win at Roulette, was to steal chips off the table”
Let's look at that other thing you keep on about, DS/
That is entirely possible, with one proviso, it is an unconscious regularity that the dealer may produce in waves and troughs (on an post analyzed chart).
IMO the smart way to 'discover' a potential DS, would be to chart the CW spins as one signature chart, and the CCW spins as a separate chart.
Again, IMO the best hunting ground for potential signposts for DS would be a Rapid Roulette table where a 'live' dealer spins a mid weight teflon ball, with the punters arranged at individual terminals.
The regularity of the timed wager-spin-wager-spin cycle leads to repeat rhythm being maintained.
The inherent bonus is that the croupier does not have to think about or engage in payout arithmetic, chip buy-in, buy-out, and is already in a pressure-free constant frame of mind. Not looking for glamor or pizazz, here just DS please.
Later........Ringmaster.

 
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on November 11, 2015, 04:10:01 PM
I have said before, Ringmaster that DS is BS ! So I agree with you that  a dealer cannot spin the winning number
any time of his choosing. 
In controlled conditions he MIGHT with a s-l-o-w wheel but not under real casino conditions. - just as a magician does but does anyone really believe that a magician does magical things ?
What some call DS is just random at work and , as I have said before, random can make fools of us all.
By the way The Wizard of Odds and Ed.Thorp , he of Blackjack fame , agree with us on this.( even if on nothing else ! ) ]Incidentally , there is no record in his writings of Einstein using" HIS" famous phrase though no probably he would agree with it.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Real on November 11, 2015, 05:33:02 PM

It's generally beyond the comprehension of the casual players.

Unless you guys have your own wheel and have a better understanding of the physics involved, dominant ball distribution, etc..., then you're simply not going to grasp how it's possible.

Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on November 11, 2015, 07:55:09 PM

It's generally beyond the comprehension of the casual players.

Unless you guys have your own wheel and have a better understanding of the physics involved, dominant ball distribution, etc..., then you're simply not going to grasp how it's possible.
I can understand how it would be POSSIBLE Real, I just don't believe it is possible without the use of an electronic device. Having your own wheel can help you practice but the casino doesn't allow you to spin their wheel does  it ? Hypothesis / theory is one thing but actually applying it for real is a different ball game altogether.( no pun intended )
 I have read quite a bit about AP and it's different approaches - online and by reading at least one book by an AP.so your continued sniping doesn't wash with me. Nor does your simplistic understanding about Probability Theory. I  have no qualifications in maths but that does not mean I cannot understand  maths  as it relates to gambling.
Your knowledge of wheels comes from your occupation and your knowledge of AP from your interest in it but ,apart from that, your knowledge of the maths is basic and so doesn't afford you the luxury of lecturing  method players .
I have asked you before to put your version in a Physics Forum for discussion there .You still have not done so .Why not if you claim that you actually profit from doing so . You don't even post what variant of AP you use.
So stop your silly posturing . I ,  for one, am not impressed.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: kav on April 09, 2017, 07:06:44 PM
Just want to link two relevant topics to the thread:
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: kav on May 18, 2017, 08:59:04 AM
I think this is a very interesting and useful video with practical advise on the subject of dealer's signature:
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: MrPerfect. on May 18, 2017, 10:54:12 AM
Nice video, Kav. If you add wheel/ball study to this information and control of timings ( ball, wheel speed adjustment) , you arrive to simplest method of play ever. 
   Player playing this way will realise when he should be playing , when to stop , when press hard.. ets.
    Sometimes it can have accuracy comparable or even better then vb.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: thomasleor on May 18, 2017, 11:17:44 AM
STOP QUOTING PREVIOUS POSTS

(http://i63.tinypic.com/28vdpc9.png)

Of course, there is a dealers signature but not in the way you present it in that video (active/predetermined by dealers assumed skill or training).

A simple floating sector partition of the wheel and mere 100-150 spins, with let's say 3-5 dealer changes (depends on Casino and time of day), will show clear (passive) sector deviations from one dealer to another. As a matter of fact, I have done such tests together with other roulette players for over a year now and the evidence for passive sector signature on every dealer is evident. The same dealer can, of course, have one type of passive sector deviation in one change, and then a couple of hours later have a completely different one.

All this depends on rhythm between spins, payout interruptions (if the table is crowded), the specific force on the spin of the wheel, ball pressure  depending on "throwing" or snapping the ball around the roulette track, amount of diamonds, pocket configuration (design wise) and several other factors we could view as influencing strange attractors in this physical emulation of a random number generator.

 Thus one could say that several strange attractors contribute to this floating sector partition of any given dealer that may appear as a fingerprint of said dealer when compared to the one before him or the same dealer given two separate points in time he enters the table for a dealer change.

Can a dealer precisely hit a predetermined sector twice or more (active signature)? Highly doubtful. Too many strange attractors that from a chaos theory POV are impossible to calculate and essentially falls back on average number distribution with slightly temporary anomalies most gamblers tend to see as "signatures" or proof of an active predetermined dealer signature arisen from training/skill.

If a clear passive dealer deviation is discovered sector partition-wise, the gambler/player that has a platform or system that can detect such an occurrence enters the game when his platform/system is in synchronicity with said repeating sectors on the wheel and consequently can harvest a nice profit until the signature and his system are out of sync.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Sputnik on May 18, 2017, 03:00:40 PM


Thomas, do you measuring ball/rotor speed when you estimate different distances.
If not then do you use the past cw or ccw results distances comparing to next cw or ccw outcome without measuring ball and rotor speed.

I just try to understand what kind of degree of physics that is involved with your online game and in real casino.
With most online casinos you are not allow to place any bets after ball is launch/spinning.
That is why i assume you look at cw and ccw using the last outcome distance comparing with next outcome to determine a signature using differential distances to emerge patterns or another word for it algorithm.

Cheers
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: thomasleor on May 18, 2017, 04:04:13 PM
STOP QUOTING PREVIOUS POSTS

When I play my advanced platforms, the answer is yes. I use wheel distance differentiation of CW and CCW spins, thus having a good idea where the ball will land in the coming spin.

If I wish to determine all possible permutations of WDD between the 10 latest spins, I need a software with sub-algorithms that manages to instantly calculate which means I have 45 distances available which I add to the latest spun pocket. Then, of course, I need 45 additional algos that determines win or loss.

 I also need a main algorithm with a set of executable actions depending on the best combination (from the subalgos) presenting said result on my main roulette display on my platform for a fast read out and bet selection. Of course, I also need to have that display show a set of values like statistical history, anomalies etc and a very efficient money management.

The final result looks like something like this older but still efficient sector predicting platform (yellow spin number are CW and green are CCW):

(http://i63.tinypic.com/14wr52t.png)

As you see it predicts next spin (33) with a 60% chance though with a negative edge between statistical and anomaly value. If you look at column 19 to the right of the roulette display you see that the predictions have failed towards the end, with 2 predicted wins followed by 2 losses which contributes to the slightly negative anomaly. Yet I place 7 units wide bet over number 36 and 7 numbers wide bet over 33. 33 comes up next spin (upcoming spin 48) and I win +22 units.

As I have written in my earlier posts there are several good ways to predict the next most probable sector on a roulette wheel without need of conventional physics  and/or any laser measuring equipment, or for that matter any chase after wheels that searches for mechanical wheel bias. This of course is the case for Online gaming against Casinos with a good reputation, game and service.

For land based Casinos you need to apply a far more simple method of wheel partition and use some kind of notebook to see which sector goes best. This of course only works for a certain time because the more number are spun the more difficult the variance becomes calculation wise. Hence one is restrained by a time factor (usually 45 minutes to 1 hour depending on table bet window times.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: thomasleor on May 18, 2017, 04:29:12 PM

To continue the previous reply, here is one of my lesser sophisticated platforms tracking/mapping floating sector partitions on the roulette wheel.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/29qfejc.png)

Each sector named A.B has 7+7 numbers bet selection.

The gray color on the white win-loss, not column are dealer changes.

Currently, if you look up on the platform you see that the sector 6.3 is dominating with a
 historical 55% hit rate (from the very first noted spin to the present 70%. A deviation/anomaly of 16% which is a very strong sector signal that the platform caught very early (at spin 49 - look furthest to the left- the platform switched best sectors to the 6.3 sectors). Despite dealer change, these 2 sectors remained strong with an extremely good hit rate deviation providing a good profit for me until the target of +400 units was reached.

So to recapitulate, there are many good ways to predict a probable set of sectors (2 sectors has shown to be best due to CW and CCW spin implementation by most Casinos).

I have demonstrated two ways. Perhaps you might get inspired and develop one of your own.

Hopes these 2 posts answers your questions.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: kav on May 18, 2017, 05:32:29 PM
Thomas please stop quoting previous posts.
Read why here: http://forum.roulette30.com/index.php?topic=1434.0
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Sputnik on May 19, 2017, 10:50:25 AM


Thomas, maybe i missunderstand you, but i can not see any advantage play or physics involved with your roulette system.
What i see is some one who use outcome contra outcome with out measuring visual ballistic solutions.

Now using distances based upon a past cw result and mapping 45 past distances in relation to that particular outcome, does not make it different then following a number sequence playing roulette.
If you think i am wrong feel free to explain and put some light on the subject.

When you play online, you can only assume things are going to happen with the help of probability and math.
You might call what you find a signature after mapping distances, but i don't see how they are different then any other common patterns as you don't measuring what happens with the wheel using physics.
For this reasons is wrong no name your method using advantage play.

Again i state that i might be wrong as i don't know every aspect of gambling.
But to understand where the physics is involved you have to define why mapping 45 different distances from each and every cw results should emerge any specific limited advantage comparing to just watch different sectors emerge different patterns and play them.
As i see it both is your average common roulette system with no physics involved.

This is the secret behind a true signature process.
Visual ballistic relations and parameters narrow down specific condition that you estimate being same spin after spin.
So ball/rotor speed become same estimation, then release number position pin point the same or close to same distances over and over again when ball regular hit certain deflectors that donate same ball jumps into same area.
All relations emerge a bias towards the same probability area where you bet.

Comparing does parameters with independent results using math and probability to measuring outcome contra outcome with different distances doe not cut it into the advantage play area.

Cheers
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: BioBrick on May 19, 2017, 11:01:57 AM
I have never dealt roulette or never seen in real life a roulette wheel. No casinos around here. But I think the dealers can learn and maybe even having fun to hit target area. I would do it as a dealer. Would be so cool to master that art. So people who have dealt really know how it works.  8)
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: thomasleor on May 19, 2017, 01:56:51 PM

If this is your opinion then you have to live with it. Not I. I have answered most of your questions in both private email and here. You seem to have a grave misunderstanding what a true advantage play really is.

Real AP is when a bet selection on the wheel (not table) be it a blind bet of any given selection is way below your own bet selection based on your own platform that recalculates a new set of sector or sectors with a clear edge in your favour. If we chose a bet selection of lets say 14 numbers, the probability for the ball to land in the sector or on any given wheel position covered by that bet of 14 numbers is exactly  37.8%.

My platform as you may have seen from the image caps I have provided shows statistical probabilities of the same 14 numbers of between 55-75%. You do understand the difference, don´t you? It is a huge advantage. Now, these are only figures for the Wheel distance Differentiation platform (which is not a system).

Then we have the Frequency Distance Differentiation that involves physics dealing with fundamental Frequency and Harmonics. ( I told you that in the first email I sent u).

The advantage, a player has with those platforms, is even higher and more consistent (and in roulette consistency is important). The visual ballistics you talk about do not work. No AP player using VB has ever made any good money on roulette. If they would have, the Casinos would have lost millions on any given month.

Have you earned any good money on what you deem to be basic visual ballistics? I don´t think so.

In my Team of platform testers (they are presently 19) I have two guys who are very experienced Visual Ballistic players.  One is from Monte Carlo, France and the other one from Belgium. When they compared tests with my platforms contra their own results from VB they saw a clear and huge difference in stability of consistent winnings, very low dips of losses (very High positive Win Loss ratio) and above all they have had lots of fun applying my platforms on Online Casino roulette wheels (live dealers or auto roulette).

They received the platforms, that I have been developing for many years, for free and of course have won a lot of money with them. In return, I only asked for continuous test reports from every casino session they have with my platforms according to a specific protocol.

See images from our testforum below.

As you may understand I have nothing to prove to you because I don´t need to. I never sell my platforms because I don´t need the money. I have just tried to be polite and answered some of your questions that might inspire you to develop something similar of your own.

Thank you.

(http://i63.tinypic.com/1zq5ypt.png)

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2aiqb6g.png)
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Sputnik on May 19, 2017, 04:38:09 PM


Thomas i am not here to make enemy - i just have to express my opinion.
When i illustrate physics i do so at a very basic level - just to illustrate what is not a independent random spin - when you estimate and measuring.

I understand that some one can explore variance and find 3 STDV.
But when is based upon random parameters then is nothing else then measuring random against random using math and probability.
Then when there is a trigger you may ride the wave or bet against it with the same random principal as using any other known number sequence.

That is what i see and read when i glance at your writing.

But i know strange things can correlate and happen with the wheel, so i am not absolute determine with my opinions, i might change my mind and understand that there is a way.

I known bias player once measuring a strange signature where you measuring the pocket count difference between outcome towards outcome and reach a 7 STDV sector with 11 pockets.
That is not random.

I save this topic from Toby (bias player) and Laruance Scott reply.
But had a hard time to locate it among my material.

The point is that i am not looking for your method or any other person method.
I try to understand.
And i feel you fail to explain some very basic concepts with your method.

For example you could explain more in detail about one particular cw result has 45 mapping distances with differential values - with out telling how your method works in detail - Then you could for example state that one area will sleep and a wider larger area will be active. The high probability area.
Where you pin point out a smaller sector in your favour.
Then it become more clear then fuzzy.

Cheers
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: MrPerfect. on May 19, 2017, 07:56:28 PM
Sputnick, there is nothing strange in signature on bias wheel. Distances are limited to (+/-18). If you drow arrows from previous number to next, they will naturally display bias section ( where arrows pointing moust)...
  I use this a lot.
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: Sputnik on May 20, 2017, 07:37:42 PM


Yes i understand and i don't search for enemy and i know you know that Thomas use roulette system.
It does not matter he use math and probability or try to explore variance using different parameters.
Still roulette system as outcome distance to next cw outcome has no physical relation that limit the random process so bias pattern can emerge.

This is the reason i made simple example with basic visual ballistic solution that narrow down the spinning process to be less random when you use release number towards outcome distances.
Then at least they are based upon similar ball/rotor speed for each and every spin that make the likelihood that distance will be same or similar and create bias pattern to emerge.

We all know this can not be done online as they not allow us the given time to measuring and estimate using physics.
So Thomas can claim he use physics and advantage play with positive expectation, but is all a lie.

Cheers
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: MrPerfect. on May 20, 2017, 08:16:56 PM
 Sputnik,  sometimes player has to think outside of the box... then he can find interesting correlations even online.
   I do not know how Thomas play, to tell truth, couldn't be bothered to try really understand. ... l read superficially his posts.
   But what l sou there is that he look more things then just a distance.
   Online play for ds is posible, it just depend on what exactly one call ds in the first place. If it bare distances between numbers, then probably no... but if player take everything that dealer does as ds, with proper wheel profile.. ets, then it will be what l do, and it's definitely posible even online.
    There are many variables governing game, many of these can be correlated with outcome... prediction is not always the strongest one of them...
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: scepticus on May 20, 2017, 09:52:18 PM

Guys
Just how do you calculate Standard Deviations using only the last 10 or 20 spins ?
Just how does noting the distances between spins amount to an Advantage ?
Professional Mathematicians will tell you that supposed correlations between past spins are the result of variance.
You talk about Physics .Name one Physicist that agrees that your ideas are valid ?
 Just like Method Players you are only  making educated guesses .
Title: Re: Dealer's signature
Post by: MrPerfect. on May 21, 2017, 02:10:40 AM
 Scepticus,  please explain wich exactly " pro mathematicians" have told you such a thing? In short, show me these fellows and l will show you cretins.
    " Spin" is an action of the ball ( what the ball does on ball track). You can easily correlate spins to the results of spins ( numbers/ distances). Vb/ds/ bias play teach how to do it.
   Correlation between past spins are result of physical conditions wich are present in the game in time when these spins took place. Your pro math guys should mind their business instead of making statements about applied physics and stats. I didn't really understand what is it about variance creating correlation... You better ask these guys if you understand them correctly.
    Distances between spins??? What in this world do you mean by that??? I'm puzzled.
     Please could you explain why would we need to confirm our "ideas" with some random dude, even if he is physicist? In fact anyone can confirm it for himself, multilap stop watch, pen / paper and a bit of brain and you are good to go. Physics behind AP is very straightforward,  you should be able to operate this level of knowledge after public school. 
   No need to demonise AP, it's a simple and straightforward logic, tools used are common public knowledge.  Just need to make some studies on your own, in Internet ege is as simple as ask Google or YouTube.  Of course not everything is explained,  but nothing is really hiden... you can get books, courses,  tutorials almost about any qwestion you may get.