# Roulette Forum

## Roulette Forum => Roulette Strategy Discussion => Topic started by: Scarface on January 13, 2018, 12:18:33 AM

Title: Dealer Signature
Post by: Scarface on January 13, 2018, 12:18:33 AM
I once had a dealer tell me she was good at hitting repeats.  Within half an hour, she hit several back to back repeats.  Was it luck? Could be.  Or maybe the speed of the wheel + her speed of the ball was so consistent that this often happens for her.

Got me thinking of a strategy.  Check the most recent hit number.  Count how many pockets it was from the previous number.  Maybe it was 12 spaces ahead.  So, now play 12 spaces ahead of that number.  If the dealer is consistent at least more than 50% of the time, it should be a winner.  I think this would work better on fast tables, where the game is moving fast and the dealer gets into more of a rhythm.  The amount of numbers played surrounding the target number depends on you...maybe a parachute starting with more numbers gradually reducing numbers after a loss.

Anyone ever play like this?  Would be interested to know how it would work
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: MickyP on January 13, 2018, 06:44:09 AM
Dealer signature can at times be easy to identify, sometime so that I think the croupier is fly fishing for more players on the table...lol

To identify the signature is not always that simple for a novice vb player like myself. Keeping track of alternating spin movements is very important as well.

I find that following the signature spin to spin can be daunting so I establish croupier hot spots on the wheel.

My vb games are all virtual at the moment but with enough practise like this I'm sure I'll get better. MrPerfect and other vb players will be able to give you the finer ins and outs of dealer signature play.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Fyodor on January 13, 2018, 08:36:53 AM
Before you get to Dealer Signature as a locked in strategy, there are a few points that you should consider in your formulations.
1. There are two sets of spin sequences in operation, the "set" of anticlockwise launch to rest, and the clockwise launch to rest.
2 Is the table a "left hand" or "right hand table?
3. Is the Dealer, in any of the above combos, a natural left or right handed operator, given that he or she, must be able to spin the ball with either hand. (It does help to know)
4. Please stop adding to the ridiculous idea, that "gifted" croupier can spin to colours, sectors or, most "touted" -individual numbers.
Rather than looking for DS, I look for combo signatures within the range of above points.
This is the most disruptive of the "Gamblers Fallacy" beliefs.
BTW, none of the above can be taken into consideration when RNG programs are involved in testing strategies and theories.

Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Scarface on January 13, 2018, 01:30:42 PM
I hear alot of people talk about dealers alternating spins, clockwise and anticlockwise.  Is this a rule at most casinos?  The casino I frequent ALWAYS spin the same direction everytime!

I play a table where the dealer spins the ball based on a 45 second counter.  We place our bets on a touchscreen.  So, every 45 seconds the dealer is mindlessly picking up the ball and spinning....thats their only job.

1.  Dealer spins the same direction every spin, every 45 seconds
2.  Not sure what you mean hear
3.  Dealer spins in the same direction, with the same hand.  Probably thousands of times a day

I think under these fast conditions, with the dealer spinning with same hand and same direction every 45 seconds, there will be some degree of predictability of what section of the wheel will be hit...enough to overcome the house edge.  What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: MickyP on January 13, 2018, 06:39:00 PM
It seems to be a rule in South African casinos; alternating spin direction, but it is not law.

I have seen some croupiers spin the same direction while most spin in both directions. I think this has to do more with croupier training than having it as a rule. My thoughts on this is that casinos want their croupiers to adhere to a standard of randomness. Croupiers that reflect a strong signature are probably instructed to use alternating spins to achieve that standard of "unpredictability ".

The best thing to do is to establish the croupier spin pattern and watch as you play as they may purposely upset the pattern by spinning twice in one direction and then resume the alternating spin pattern. This is much like the numbers on the display; every so often a number is not displayed. If you use these displayed numbers to track with you may be thrown off track. Always pay attention to every aspect of your game including checking to make sure your payout is correct.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Scarface on January 13, 2018, 08:09:02 PM
Yes, there must be a good reason the casino would want the dealer spinning in alternating directions.  The casino knows that players can pick up on dealer signature, or why else have the rule?

This is why I think I may have an advantage at my casino.  Dealer always spins the same direction....and dealer always spins the ball every 45 seconds ( getting in a more rhythmic automated pattern).  I believe, because these 2 factors exist, its very possible to get an edge detecting dealer signature.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: MickyP on January 13, 2018, 09:11:24 PM
Can you actually see the whole wheel from your seat at the touch screen? Is the wheel and croupier live or a video feed?
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: heatmap on January 14, 2018, 12:25:13 AM
I see this happening all the time and then whenever i would jump in the pattern i saw was long gone. Ive talked to other people who have just seen and noticed the same patterns happening and they probably would never even come to a forum like this.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: MickyP on January 14, 2018, 12:50:57 AM
From overhearing general talk and observation around a roulette table dealer signature is mentioned very often. You are right Heatmap, these patterns do appear more often than we think.

The problem with trying to play dealer signature exclusively at a table is that when you buy into the table you are expected to play so you have the added pressure of the casino breathing down your neck to lay bets on the table or give up your colour. The safe way is to use cash chips and play call bets on the race track. I'm working towards this but for my game play is working for me.

Dealer signature (vb) is a whole different ball game.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Scarface on January 17, 2018, 11:13:41 PM
Can you actually see the whole wheel from your seat at the touch screen? Is the wheel and croupier live or a video feed?

Yes it is live and easy to see.  Dealer is a couple feet away.  You can also see the close up video on the screen.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: MickyP on January 18, 2018, 07:18:49 AM
Interesting.
We tend to hammer the casinos for unfair practise, rigging results etc; but it becomes a head scratcher when you see how far they go to make life easier for players. Here are a few things they do..
Video monitors (mentioned above)
Display spin history
Display hot/cold numbers
Display stats of up to 150 spins
Increase the speed of the game through technology.
Making it easier to place bets using technology  (touch screen).
Complimentary drinks..

Logically thinking, if there are no winners the casinos will go bust. Are they actually encouraging winning?
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: The Bedsit Botter on January 18, 2018, 07:31:58 AM
Personally I am not interested in Dealer Signature.

However for those who are I have pasted a system for Roulette Extreme that many of you won't have come across before for use at online casinos.

You must wait for a new croupier to start spinning then enter the numbers for predictions.

You should stop the session and wait for a new croupier if you show a loss of 70 units.

Edit:  I have issues pasting things here so I have attached it as a txt file instead.

Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: scepticus on January 18, 2018, 02:54:57 PM
Dealer's Signature- Patterns etc.  are all explained  by " Random".
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Mike on January 18, 2018, 03:15:54 PM
Video monitors (mentioned above)
Display spin history
Display hot/cold numbers
Display stats of up to 150 spins
Increase the speed of the game through technology.
Making it easier to place bets using technology  (touch screen).
Complimentary drinks..

Maybe the casinos don't have the same assumptions you do? Displaying spin history, stats, hot/cold numbers etc doesn't do the casinos any harm, because they know that these things can't be used to predict future outcomes. However, many players believe that they can, and bet more heavily when they see some "favorable" history. e.g. after 10 reds in a row, many players would be tempted to bet heavily on black. Increasing the speed of the game, video monitors and making it easier to place bets is good business sense for them, because it means a table can accommodate more players and they will place more bets per hour. The object is to attract as many players as possible and get them to place as many bets as possible in the shortest amount of time.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Fyodor on January 19, 2018, 12:40:23 AM
Going against the grain here, but I have used past results to formulate future outcomes for many years, as has anyone who plays roulette.
BTW, all of the bot "testing" (1000, 1-16Million?) uses previously generated result lists to verify and theoretically validate future "playable systems"
-unless, of course, the researcher is generating a unique set of outcomes in real time.
Somehow, I don't think so!
In my opinion, there are no "magic bullets" or shortcuts where Roulette is concerned, you have to play, at a table, in a REAL CASINO, with REAL CASH MONEY, because this journey does not have a "Sat-Nav" solution or director.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: scepticus on January 19, 2018, 01:13:25 AM

With REAL CASH .Yes
TAWK in forums is cheap.You  need to  put YOUR money where your mouth is !

and Fyodor
You are NOT going against the grain here . I am. though .
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Fyodor on January 19, 2018, 06:41:53 AM
OK Scepticus, I just finished playing two sessions, in fact I am still in the Casino.
Played my Formula1, 2, 3 strategy.
First session, profit 500 (LCU),
Second session, profit 1700 (LCU)
100 (LCU) starting bank each time.
Think I have earned the weekend off.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Scarface on February 11, 2018, 03:13:02 AM
If dealer hits the same side of the wheel as previous spin, play that side (half the wheel).  If dealer hits opposite side as previous spin, play opposite side half.  For a 50/50 bet, this seems like it would be alot more consistent with less variance than playing red/black or odd/even
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: MrPerfect. on February 17, 2018, 11:01:14 PM
No, you will get exactly same results as black / red.
There is much more to dealer signature then many realise.
On my practice , when it's playable, it has little in comon with dealer himself.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Fyodor on February 18, 2018, 02:59:57 AM
Every spin/result at the table in a B&M, is the result of a deliberate motion/application to propel the ball, with enough force, that it will travel in excess of (at least) four revolutions of the ball race.
There is no upper limit to the amount of force that can be applied in launching the ball, and I have observed more than twenty-five circuits, before the ball finally fell into a pocket.
While the speed of the ball decays, to the point where centrifugal force is overcome by both friction and gravity, a different application of physics is involved in the mechanical operation of the wheel.
It is engineered to spin on a vertical, lubricated bearings/axle/spindle, and, with moderate force applied, may continue to rotate (uninterrupted) for a very considerable period, with minimal reduction in speed.
In any case, much longer than the period between ball launch/rest.
As is often the case, the (apparent constant) of the rotor, is higher than the decay speed of the ball, (I am leaving out the effects of the deflect "diamonds" at this point) and can not only halt the forward progress of the slowing ball, but add velocity to the ball, with various unforeseen results.
The worst of these being, that the ball is struck out of the bowl completely.
Obviously, playing at a table where the dealers attitude/reputation/indication/signature, includes either (or both), faster than average rotor or ball/launch speed, should be avoided if at all possible.
There are dealers with "reputations" of wiping everyone off the table, house wins the majority.
There are dealers with "attitudes" who believe they can "avoid" big payout wagers.
There are dealers who are "known for throwing doubles" with reliability.
There are dealers who will "let" you win by throwing numbers or sectors that you wager on.
These examples are all folkloric fallacies, no matter how many times you hear them.
The problem is, those "histories" are now in your head, and if "that" dealer, ever hits his reputation "signature" result, you will be convinced that it is all true.
Dealer "Signatures" exist, depending on your interpretation of the game, but Gamblers Fallacy instigated them, the players perpetuated them, and the dealers just go along with them, to give themselves a reputation.
As MrPerfect said,
"It has little in common, with the dealer himself."
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: MickyP on February 18, 2018, 09:59:06 AM
There is much more to dealer signature then many realise.
On my practice , when it's playable, it has little in comon with dealer himself.
We are talking dealer signature here. Right?
Please explain the "it has little in common with dealer himself" comment.
MrPerfect, maybe in your response you can start by giving your definition of Dealer Signature so we are all on the same page. Thanks.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: MrPerfect. on February 18, 2018, 01:24:36 PM
Im very simple fellow and do not expect ball or wheel or dealer follow any of my assumptions  ( fallacies if you wish). I just follow what these 3 do and collect data. Data that l collect show me what was going on with these 3 ( dealer, ball, wheel)... and permit to model play situations for optimal play. All l ask from these 3 is consistent behaviour.
Many think about dealer signature as distance between pokets on landing numbers. On my humble opinion it's too much to ask for. Without control of governing variables and understanding of the game itself,  such a play is " following hot distances fallacy".
Obviously such a play could be implemented on " perfect wheel" , but such do not exist.
My definition of " dealer signature " is consistent dealer behavior in what he does. It has next to nothing to do with numbers itself,  but more with variables governing game and how likely dealer is to produce them consistently.
Most of " dealer sinature" that has a chance to present itself is related to wheel and ball, not to the dealer. Dealer can change conditions, but conditions will determine numbers, distances , frequencies; not the dealer himself. Same conditions  will result in same results, independently of the dealer.

Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Sputnik on February 18, 2018, 05:42:07 PM

How many of you members has memorize the wheel numbers?

Cheers
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: kav on February 18, 2018, 06:52:04 PM
I certainly do.

It happened  many years ago automatically. Visiting the casino often, betting various sectors over the wheel, looking at the wheel the time the ball drops and seeing the sector near my numbers etc. It just happened by experience and the focus on the ball dropping on the wheel and the near miss effect (http://www.roulette30.com/win/4-pillars-system-notes-madman). And the adrenaline makes the experience more intense and helps memory.

Also knowing that Black - Red and high - Low and Even - Odd numbers, mostly alternate on the wheel (http://www.roulette30.com/2014/04/roulette-wheel.html#the-logic-of-the-wheel-layout), helps to remember the numbers more easily.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Fyodor on February 18, 2018, 10:24:05 PM
Memorized the EU wheel over 40 years ago.
The sequence of numbers on the wheel, is the most efficient distribution of numerical order possible for such a game.
IMO, this is why the original game has maintained its longevity.
Before the addition of the zero, (to make the game commercially viable) there were established "patterns" of number sequences, that were easier to extricate and appreciate before the zero (house adv number) was added, but, even that location did not detract from the original sequence "balance"
Analyzing the wheel sequence, for me, was like discovering a hidden (symbolic) treasure, and I have appreciated the hidden-in-plain-sight design ever since.
The "alphabet" of the wheel is the most primary attribute in the formation of gaming plans, strategies or systems, and those who play, without the "knowledge" leave themselves disadvantaged in the scheme of expectations.
The numbers may add up to 666, but even the Devil, could not have placed them in better order.

Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Real on February 18, 2018, 10:47:57 PM
Why do you consider the way the numbers are placed on the wheel to be relevant?

After all, you can simply bet the numbers as they lay on the wheel.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Scarface on February 19, 2018, 02:03:46 AM
If the casino does not believe that dealer signature is possible, why do they rotate dealers out every half hour or so.  I don't know of any job where an employee gets so many breaks  :)

And from what I understand, casinos outside the US alternate their spins from clockwise to counterclockwise.  Why so much precaution if dealer signature provides no edge?

On a fast table, where dealers pick up the ball and spin almost robotically every 45 seconds seems like it would give you the ability to predict sections that hit to overcome the 5% house edge.  I would think even the AP guys would agree with this
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: MickyP on February 19, 2018, 02:24:22 AM
@Fyodor. I think you did a great job explaining the importance of number placement on the single zero wheel. To explain it any better to those who don't understand you'd have to use pictures...lol

@Scarface. Sound reasoning but a pictorial timeline of different croupiers at the same table and close up pictures of the wheel spinning both ways would eliminate any confusion.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Real on February 19, 2018, 02:30:45 AM
Quote
If the casino does not believe that dealer signature is possible, why do they rotate dealers out every half hour or so.  I don't know of any job where an employee gets so many breaks

To break up the game, to keep dealers fresh in order to reduce errors, to give players the feeling that they have a fresh shot at making money and reduce the odds of theft via dealer/player collusion such as past posting and marking wrong numbers.

Quote

And from what I understand, casinos outside the US alternate their spins from clockwise to counterclockwise.  Why so much precaution if dealer signature provides no edge?

The reason the wheels alternate is mainly because of wheel bias.  Over the last 100 years and even more, casinos were spanked by biased wheel players.  Changing the direction can change the numbers which perform as bias.

Quote
On a fast table, where dealers pick up the ball and spin almost robotically every 45 seconds seems like it would give you the ability to predict sections that hit to overcome the 5% house edge.  I would think even the AP guys would agree with this

Yes dealers can section on a wheel if it has the right conditions.

1. Strong dominant ball drop.
2. Reasonable ball bounce/scatter.
However AP players don't rely on the dealer, as it's terribly inefficient.  We don't need to the dealer to be "on our side" or section shoot for us.  Many APs can predict where the ball will land without the dealer's cooperation and we don't need to see where the dealer even releases the ball... VB doesn't depend on it.

There's no real magic to how the numbers are placed these days.  In the old days a biased wheel would have stood out more quickly if you'd have had the wheel in a numeric layout (1,2,3,4...) and the dozens could have theoretically turned into reasonable bets for certain biased wheels.  You could also imagine how beneficial it would be for VB players to simply lay an outside bet for a section of the wheel.  However, these days wheels are better made and there's less reason to mix the numbers as they lay on the wheel.  There are also racetrack bets available for players that choose to bet a section of the wheel.

So Fydor, why do you feel the way the numbers are placed on the wheel is magical?

-Really
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Fyodor on February 19, 2018, 11:42:17 PM
Magical? No, but perfectly balanced, challenging, artfully distributed in a sequence that defines and exemplifies this format as the most unique of all the salon/parlor games.
And, as this forum illustrates, the most discussed, conjectural, debated and considered (outside of poker) as a GAMBLING tableau.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Real on February 19, 2018, 11:50:54 PM
Challenging?  Not really.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: Fyodor on February 20, 2018, 01:01:33 AM
Some convey the aura of a connoisseur, but deliver the dialogue of a dilettante.
Title: Re: Dealer Signature
Post by: cht on February 20, 2018, 01:39:27 AM
If the casino does not believe that dealer signature is possible, why do they rotate dealers out every half hour or so.  I don't know of any job where an employee gets so many breaks  :)
To prevent sector steering for or against the player.