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Roulette Forum => Roulette Strategy Discussion => Topic started by: kav on April 18, 2015, 12:34:42 PM

Title: Reverse thinking
Post by: kav on April 18, 2015, 12:34:42 PM
Question: what money management method will you use in order to minimize your wins?
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: dobbelsteen on April 18, 2015, 03:19:57 PM
Sorry I do not understand the question.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: kav on April 18, 2015, 04:08:24 PM
Let's say you bet on Black, or whatever other bet selection. But let's take Black as an example.
As we all know it is possible that the Black dominates and you win big.
The question is:
What money management/progression would you use in order to keep  your winnings/profits LOW even if your bet  wins often.

A strange question, since we usually want to increase profits and decrease losses, but I think this question will help us do some lateral thinking.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: BlueAngel on April 18, 2015, 06:54:22 PM
The minimum bet,or no bet at all.
It's pretty obvious I think.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: Paulnewman on April 18, 2015, 08:50:16 PM
The minimum bet,or no bet at all.
It's pretty obvious I think.


The minimum bet, or decreasing the bet once you winning...
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: kav on April 18, 2015, 08:54:38 PM
As an example imagine this sequence:
WWWWLLWWWLWWWLWWWWWLWWWLWWWWWLLWL

No, minimum bet will not produce the lowest profit.
Minimum bet will produce a steady profit.
While if for example you parlayed your bets, one loss is enough to lose all your profit.

I'm not suggesting that parlay is THE way to go; just showing that the answer is not obvious at all.
This is a thought provoking question.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: dobbelsteen on April 19, 2015, 03:08:25 PM
After a profitable session  on the ECs you must flat betting on the contrary EC till a profit
Example; The stats of the last 50 spins show 64% B, 34% R and 2% zero.
The history board shows  R-R Z -Z-Z-R-Z-R-Z-Z-R-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z now bet  R till you have a profit. THis is the case if the stats show  the percentage B is decreased below 64%.
This method is a HG.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: scepticus on April 19, 2015, 03:31:05 PM
A good method dobbelsteen but to claim it is a HG is, I think, an overstatement . How many spins are needed when you start betting ? What is the required bank ? Can you really guarantee that it will win within that bankroll ?
And how many players are prepared to wait  for 50 spins before betting ?
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: kav on April 19, 2015, 04:47:09 PM
Sorry, dobbel, but I asked a very specific question which is:
What money management/progression would you use in order to keep  your winnings/profits LOW even if your bet  wins often.

I also offered an example of a winning sequence
WWWWLLWWWLWWWLWWWWWLWWWLWWWWWLLWL

So far, people have a great problem adjusting to this strange yet simple question and offer unrelated answers. (most of which I have deleted or moved to new threads)
It is a great evidence that we are so fixated in our perceptions that we cannot think out of the box.This I believe a GREAT insight into the roulette player's mind. Most of us are stuck to a very specific way of approaching the game and can't think laterally. Too bad.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: scepticus on April 19, 2015, 06:36:48 PM
Sorry, dobbel, but I asked a very specific question which is:
What money management/progression would you use in order to keep  your winnings/profits LOW even if your bet  wins often.

I also offered an example of a winning sequence
WWWWLLWWWLWWWLWWWWWLWWWLWWWWWLLWL

So far, people have a great problem adjusting to this strange yet simple question and offer unrelated answers. (most of which I have deleted or moved to new threads)
It is a great evidence that we are so fixated in our perceptions that we cannot think out of the box.This I believe a GREAT insight into the roulette player's mind. Most of us are stuck to a very specific way of approaching the game and can't think laterally. Too bad.
I think level stakes would be a good contender . ( Is this the answer you were looking for kav ?  And therefore to maximise profits we should employ some form of progression ? )
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: kav on April 19, 2015, 06:57:12 PM
I think level stakes would be a good contender . ( Is this the answer you were looking for kav ?  And therefore to maximize profits we should employ some form of progression ? )
I'm not looking for predetermined answers. But the aim here is to MINIMIZE profits :-)
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: scepticus on April 19, 2015, 11:53:40 PM
I think level stakes would be a good contender . ( Is this the answer you were looking for kav ?  And therefore to maximize profits we should employ some form of progression ? )
I'm not looking for predetermined answers. But the aim here is to MINIMIZE profits :-)


O.K.then. Level stakes is my answer .
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: kav on April 20, 2015, 09:31:18 AM
Now let me put in in a different way:
There are you and another guy on a roulette table. That day the Black has a higher hit rate that Red, something like a 60% hit rate, in every 100 spins, 60 are Black.
Now there comes a guy with a gun in his hand and tells you that you all should keep betting on Black and after 100 spins he will kill the guy with the most chips.
What method would you use?
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: sensei87 on April 20, 2015, 12:59:06 PM
I can't be sure whether my way of thinking is right but if there is no limit to my bet amount i would divide my Bankroll into 40 pieces, bet on black and double my bet amount until i hit a R. Until i have reached 40 R (which will happen in 100 spins) i will have depleted my bankroll.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: dobbelsteen on April 20, 2015, 01:44:54 PM
The question is more complicated.
My long run theory tells me that after about 150 spins the ratio of the EC is nearly 1. The ratio 2/3  R/B is not likely. In this example betting black with a negative progression will bust you.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: kav on April 20, 2015, 02:49:14 PM
I can't be sure whether my way of thinking is right but if there is no limit to my bet amount i would divide my Bankroll into 40 pieces, bet on black and double my bet amount until i hit a R. Until i have reached 40 R (which will happen in 100 spins) i will have depleted my bankroll.
This is a great answer! Thanks and welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: scepticus on April 20, 2015, 02:56:47 PM
Keep betting progressively-betting all your money on Black each and every time .Whenever red appears you are spared the bullet.Even reaching the House limit on Black you can still have another increase by betting all the black numbers as well as the limit on black.
I still think, kav , that you have an " ulterior " motive in asking that question. Asking pointless questions is not your style.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: kav on April 20, 2015, 03:04:35 PM
The question is more complicated.
My long run theory tells me that after about 150 spins the ratio of the EC is nearly 1. The ratio 2/3  R/B is not likely. In this example betting black with a negative progression will bust you.
dobbel,
The win ratio is not the issue here. This is a hypothetical question and the ratio is a given of the problem. Please, step back a bit and try to read what I wrote again.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: kav on April 20, 2015, 03:10:10 PM
Keep betting progressively-betting all your money on Black each and every time .Whenever red appears you are spared the bullet.Even reaching the House limit on Black you can still have another increase by betting all the black numbers as well as the limit on black.
I still think, kav , that you have an " ulterior " motive in asking that question. Asking pointless questions is not your style.
Great answer.
It may seem like a "pointless" question. In fact it is just a "fresh" question.
This is Lateral Thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_thinking).
Lateral thinking is solving problems through an indirect and creative approach, using reasoning that is not immediately obvious and involving ideas that may not be obtainable by using only traditional step-by-step logic. The term was coined in 1967 by Edward de Bono.

No matter how hard you look at a wall you won't see behind it. But it you change your position a bit you may see what's behind it.
I think we are looking too long and too hard in the same direction of roulette and this hardly produces anything new.
I just tried to change the view.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: scepticus on April 20, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
I read de bono away back  when first published so I understand the point you make which is, basically , Keep an Open Mind.  I think that is what I usually do .I have posted a number of ideas on roulette which are not related to each other .They  have been routinely  considered worthless .Even by some who have admitted that they  don't understand them !
That said, I think that there should be reasoning behind any method posted here. I look forward to hearing the reasoning behind The Magic Square . Not believing in astrology I am initially sceptical  but remain open to being convinced.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: BlueAngel on April 20, 2015, 09:31:17 PM
I can't be sure whether my way of thinking is right but if there is no limit to my bet amount i would divide my Bankroll into 40 pieces, bet on black and double my bet amount until i hit a R. Until i have reached 40 R (which will happen in 100 spins) i will have depleted my bankroll.


I think that the faster way to lose everything you have,your bankroll,is to bet all in,if you win,then put everything back again,so on until you lose everything!
You can't win all the bets,so just 1 bet would be enough to eliminate your total bankroll and not 40 like you said.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: BlueAngel on April 20, 2015, 09:41:34 PM
I read de bono away back  when first published so I understand the point you make which is, basically , Keep an Open Mind.  I think that is what I usually do .I have posted a number of ideas on roulette which are not related to each other .They  have been routinely  considered worthless .Even by some who have admitted that they  don't understand them !
That said, I think that there should be reasoning behind any method posted here. I look forward to hearing the reasoning behind The Magic Square . Not believing in astrology I am initially sceptical  but remain open to being convinced.
Just a small parenthesis,the "Sun Numbers" (magic square) is not being related with Astrology,but Numerology.
Perhaps today is not being considered as science but remains the oldest of all sciences.
Mathematics evaluates numbers only as quantities,Numerology on the other hand,considers numbers as properties.
Just think about this,do you know where all numbers came from??
Letters are a human's creation,numbers are NOT,letters are changing from one language to the other,numbers are NOT!

Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: Bayes on April 21, 2015, 09:37:04 AM
BlueAngel,

As far as I'm concerned numerology is pure bunkum, but that may be prejudice on my part, having never investigated it. There is no evidence that any system based on numerology works any better than chance, but if you believe otherwise, feel free to post some results and I'll analyze them for you.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: kav on April 21, 2015, 10:04:40 AM
Guys please continue the discussion about numerology in the magic square (http://rouletteforum.roulette30.com/index.php/topic,268.0.html) thread.
Thanks
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: albalaha on July 28, 2015, 05:32:47 PM
@Kav,
             I can answer your riddle but need to be clarified on certain points:
1. Are you talking of endless play or a limited amount of spins where a session will be declared finished? Say 100 spins.

2. Are you sure there will be more wins than losses there?

3. Do we need to take into account all combinations of Losses and Wins?

4. Do we have a real world bankroll limit and table limit or we can fly into hypothesis as far as we like?

5. Are you looking for an answer of the given series of Ls/Ws(I hope not).
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: GameNeverOver on July 28, 2015, 07:52:17 PM
Question: what money management method will you use in order to minimize your wins?

Like BlueAngel said, we can bet the minimum. Or skip spins.

I'll add: we can have win goal ex. just +1 unit then quit.

Sorry Kav but creating and commenting on this thread is simple waste of time.
We should put more time and effort in testing of the variations and trying to determine their limits.

After that we can create a MM which will work best with them.
=GNO=
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: Harryj on July 29, 2015, 02:41:36 PM
   Hi Kav,
             I wasn't around when you posed this question. I have to go with scep and sensei on this. The only way you can guaranttee to lose is to play a positive(up as you win) progression, without a regress for profit taking. ie. Raising your bet after every win until a loss swept everything away.
   
       You do not say if the punter HAS to participate for a minimum number of spins, or if the original bet of each series has to be the minimum stake allowed. In which case further money management would be needed to stay within the rules. Sceps idea of betting on black NUMBERS would allow you to exert some control over the speed at which you lost.

          Harry
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: weird on July 31, 2015, 05:06:01 PM
WWWWLLWWWLWWWLWWWWWLWWWLWWWWWLLWL

since no rules indicated,

If I need to bet for minima win ,
 I will wait for a lose, as trigger, then bet 1u,
then wait again for a lose, as trigger and bet 1.

W
W
W
W
L=trigger
L bet 1=-1
W bet1=0
W
W
L=trigger
W=bet 1=1
W
W
L=trigger
W=bet1=2
W
W
W
W
L=trigger
W=bet1=3
W
W
L=trigger
W=bet1=4
W
W
W
W
L=trigger=
L=bet1=-1=3
W
L

win 3unit.
=============

or wait for two losses in row, as trigger.
then bet1,

result: will only win 2unit.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: albalaha on August 01, 2015, 06:25:14 AM
Do not reverse engineer a given case because you won't get this similar case to play in even a billion spins. Reverse thinking and creating strategies after knowing where wins and losses are located are very different.

I will play this way or that way that somehow win this particular sequence is like fooling yourself.
I can say, I will play after 4 wins to begin, for two steps. Then i will play once after a WWW...................................... All these do not make any sense.

 I asked some simple questions to KAV relating to this riddle but he preferred to not answer.
So have fun guys.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: scepticus on August 01, 2015, 02:38:20 PM
Do not reverse engineer a given case because you won't get this similar case to play in even a billion spins. Reverse thinking and creating strategies after knowing where wins and losses are located are very different.

I will play this way or that way that somehow win this particular sequence is like fooling yourself.
I can say, I will play after 4 wins to begin, for two steps. Then i will play once after a WWW...................................... All these do not make any sense.

 I asked some simple questions to KAV relating to this riddle but he preferred to not answer.
So have fun guys.
     (http://rouletteforum.roulette30.com/Themes/concept/images/post/xx.gif)   Reverse thinking (http://rouletteforum.roulette30.com/index.php/topic,265.msg1990.html#msg1990)  « on: April 18, 2015, 12:34:42 PM »     Question: what money management method will you use in order to minimize your wins? kav
     
My initial thought was - flat bet .Then I thought that it was a strange question so thought DIFFERENTLY .
I think kav posed the " silly " question to make us think DIFFERENTLY and to realise that there are different ways of looking at any problem. As I said earlier - I think he had an ulterior motive in asking the question.
   
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: Reyth on October 24, 2016, 08:56:44 PM
Sorry I had to post here.

First of all the bet with the worst odds is 1 number SU.  Therefore I simply put my entire balance on the number 17 and I am virtually guaranteed to lose it all within 4 spins and the vast majority of the time I will lose it in a single spin.

The unfortunate downside is that my profit will go up tremendously at certain rare times but the question was MINIMIZE YOUR WINS and therefore my method is the best mentioned so far, in my opinion, providing the least number of wins per bust.

Now the real question is, what does this teach us about how to think differently about roulette?  Well we can see the following in this method:

1) It will earn the highest balance of any possible method (the best most desired thing)
2) It will lose the most frequently of any possible method (the worst least desired thing)

(to be continued)

Well, seeing as how this bet selection has the BEST of the most desired thing (payout) it would seem that we should pursue it while MINIMIZING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE #2; i.e. losses due to the poor odds.

So what are the reasons for these losses?  LARGE DRAWDOWNS DUE TO NUMBERS GOING MISSING.

I think its also important to understand that a number "going missing" doesn't just mean that it doesn't show up but it also can/does mean that it successively shows up infrequently.  In other words, a number "going missing" can very easily be a long term attribute of a particular number.

So how do we avoid this drawdown so we can take advantage of the highest possible profits that are available to us in roulette? 

First, we can take a page out of the Harry-Pales play book and use a range.  We can also apply the principle that I "discovered" where bet randomization after a win will yield better results than random.  Again, borrowing from Harry-Pales, we also will heavily rely upon their foundational principle that rare events will not repeat successively very often or for very long.  We will also throw in Dobble's Short Run Theory that says that a series of short runs are not statistically the same as a long run which also coincides with my "Wheel States" theory that says the longer the wheel spins, the greater the chances of the random sequence to corrupt.  We can also use the Turbo Genius principle that a large progression isn't necessary and a long term view is required.  Finally, while battling in the trenches, we can draw on a "recovery management" skill that I learned from an unnamed veteran gambler, because "The art of gambling is not just in making money, but in keeping it".

Combining all these principles together we can actively minimize the terrible effects caused by single number draw downs while still being able to reap the giant rewards that a single number provides in payouts.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/347a2iu.png)

Anyone know which one of these performs better?

What's the very worst bet in roulette?


(http://i65.tinypic.com/ad0s2d.png)

(http://i66.tinypic.com/nmafsz.png)

Is it possible to maxmize the odds and probabilties of roulette yet while minimizing our bet selection?

Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: MrPerfect. on October 25, 2016, 07:38:23 AM
 If you really after reverse thinking, why wouldn't you try to pay atention to wheel itself?
 Instead of inventing methods , you could find one wich would follow the wheel and what it does..  especially when it does it.
  Take Mr.J " finaly l got it" as a basis. ... lt has more info then many would realise.
Title: Re: Reverse thinking
Post by: BlueAngel on March 13, 2017, 11:56:35 AM

I've tried to find Mr.J's " finallyl got it" but I didn't, where is it?
Do you have a link?