Roulette Forum

Roulette Forum => Reviews: Casinos Online and... Offline => Topic started by: kav on March 11, 2017, 04:41:03 PM

Title: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: kav on March 11, 2017, 04:41:03 PM
For the first time in my life I played an online live roulette game with real money.
The casino doesn't matter so much as the software company that provides the games, in this case NetEnt.

I bet on 16 numbers. In the less than 130 spins that I played, I saw my numbers go missing completely for 14 and 12 spins.

16 predetermined numbers missing for 14 spins has a probability of less than 0,1%. Nough said!
Title: Re: NetEnd Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: juice on March 11, 2017, 04:56:55 PM
That sucks! This was live dealer?
Title: Re: NetEnd Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: kav on March 11, 2017, 04:59:25 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: NetEnd Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Reyth on March 11, 2017, 05:19:51 PM
Wow sorry to hear that. :(

Since it was live, how would the software company have anything to do with that?

I found:

14 spins 99.964
12 spins 99.89

With the maximum loss I can simulate to be 30.

(http://i64.tinypic.com/ndmwci.jpg)

As it turns out I just got nailed on a session myself pretty bad where my numbers only saw 9:633 over a long period and I lost a whole table bank.  I will go back to the well later today looking to recoup it all and more! :D
Title: Re: NetEnd Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: DrTalos on March 11, 2017, 05:25:28 PM
That is exactly why I don't trust online gambling...
Title: Re: NetEnd Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Reyth on March 11, 2017, 05:34:25 PM
My personal opinion here is that it doesn't appear as cheating to me? 

However, I have heard of results from several members on this forum that I SERIOUSLY do suspect to be the results of cheating or at least a malformed RNG.
Title: Re: NetEnd Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Bayes on March 11, 2017, 05:52:48 PM
Nough said!

Kav, I'm a little surprised by your conclusion. A deviation against you means they're cheating? And supposing they were, it wouldn't make sense to do it on your very first play; better to suck you in first and lull you into a false sense of security!  ;D

Anyway, sorry to hear you lost.
 
Title: Re: NetEnd Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: jekhb76 on March 11, 2017, 06:54:47 PM
Sorry to hear that man, that's why when i play at an online casino from time to time i only use small chip values, not for big money. when i want that i will go to a real casino.Hope that you didn't lose much.
Title: Re: NetEnd Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Jesper on March 11, 2017, 07:02:10 PM
NetEnt is a Swedish company and I have had some doubt. No proof. but I avoid them. I do not accuse them, but do not like to use them.
Title: Re: NetEnd Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: kav on March 11, 2017, 07:04:16 PM
No need to feel sorry for me, thanks.
I have described some facts.
It is up to ones experience, knowledge and critical ability to draw his own conclusions.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: kav on March 12, 2017, 04:29:36 PM
I have calculated the exact probabilities.

16 numbers sleeping for 14 spins, probability: 0,036%
16 numbers sleeping for 12 spins, probability: 0,2%
And I have both this events, for the same numbers happening in less than 130 spins.
If you call this just deviation...
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Bayes on March 12, 2017, 05:49:20 PM
Such deviations can and do happen, even the first time you play at a particular casino. Not saying there's nothing fishy going on, but a one-off event isn't really grounds for thinking there is. Those who don't trust online casinos will have their suspicions "confirmed" every time by such events, while ignoring the positive occurrences. I'm sure you know that though Kav.  ;)
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Reyth on March 12, 2017, 07:54:24 PM
Granted having them back to back must be rarer but the two plays taken by themselves do not look to me to be fishy.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: kav on March 12, 2017, 08:44:08 PM
These are the 3 coldest and hottest numbers. I find the difference quite high:
(http://image.prntscr.com/image/5e5699b932564afeaac1041f214d8278.png)

My guess this stat is from the last 500 spins or something.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Reyth on March 13, 2017, 04:21:15 PM
Ya I would never trust the list "hot" and "cold"numbers; I would calculate them myself every time.

I mean the whole idea of what is hot and cold is so subjective to the point that the casino is almost free to put up any numbers they want under each heading.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: dobbelsteen on March 14, 2017, 02:16:14 PM
The definition of hot and cold are completed different Hot numbers ar most computed for the last 300 or 500 spins.
 The cold numbers are the numbers which has most not fallen. That means that a number can be hot and cold.

If you do not trust an online roulette, bet one smallest unit on an EC. Theoretical you lose 3 units on 111 sins. Study the history row and try to find a bias in randomness. It is very difficult to prove a RNG is manipulated. I have seen the most unlikely sequences. SSB is very difficult to trace.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Rinad on March 14, 2017, 03:04:05 PM
 
 Kav, I remember now why I dont play online anymore. like dr Talos says I learned the lesson, and it costed me a lot of money.  losing streaks that goes way beyond what you ever experienced before.
even with live dealers, it does not matter. you got cheated like many of us have.
they are so many ways they can do it , it really sucks.
and I had it happend on my very first session as well. you are not the most unluckiest man in the world !!!
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: kav on March 14, 2017, 04:01:13 PM
Your comment somehow eases my pain ;-)
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: dobbelsteen on March 15, 2017, 10:00:47 AM
playing in the practice mode there is no season to manipulate the RNG. Someone believe that the practice mode is manipulated with an advantage for the player. This to temt the player to play for real money.
In the practice mode you can test all your ideas without a risk. It is also good fot your skil.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Reyth on March 15, 2017, 10:27:46 AM
Don't forget there are play money wheels that are not casino based also.  I have heard that Roulette Simulator even uses the high quality TRNG Random.org.

However, this is only a rumour as I cannot find any corroborating info on their site...

I do know however that Random.org does have an APP DOWNLOAD feature available.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Jesper on March 15, 2017, 12:10:40 PM
I have tested the same casinos in both fun and real mode. Some very much, and it is no any sign of easier to win.
Free money or fun money makes other kind of play, some are too scary with the bets, so a good streak gain small and a bad lose all.

If we test and play the same style, we will see it is no difference. I do not know about all casinos, so it may exist.

I heard about one casino which did opposite to other, and offer very good odds on pennie slot, people starting win and "chip up" and losing.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: kav on March 16, 2017, 01:04:27 AM
I am now very positive that this platform sucks.
I have experienced too many extreme events of various types.
I personally advise anyone to avoid this platform.
Among other tests I did and stats I took I have played the Kavouras bet (http://www.roulette30.com/p/kavouras-bet.html). I know this bet extremely well and  I know what i can expect as a good or bad scenario. BetEnt was beyond anything I have ever experienced in a casino all the years I play this bet. 

BetEnt is full of extreme sequences after extreme sequences. (Follow the Last on even chances winning 19 bets in 20 spins, 5 numbers sleeping for 100 spins, 5 numbers being super hot for over 100 spins etc. etc.

Here is a "favorable" extreme event. In all my years I have never faced such a winning sequence for the Kavouras bet. Win after win after win, losing only 3 times in 22 spins and most winning spins paying the big money (splits)!
I don't know what is happening with NetEnd, but it is beyond any previous experiences I had playing roulette.

I attach the images when Kav bet would make a killing even if just flat betting (117 chips profit in 22 spins)

(http://image.prntscr.com/image/50944ef077a947d7ad6e9c0f57e9518b.png)
(http://image.prntscr.com/image/e5e99f0e5cac4ce28faccefbf01a2a76.png)
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Jesper on March 16, 2017, 03:35:29 AM
The two pictures looks not very strange, it is seen every day, if we play rng fast, so we got the spin sample .

I got just a run with a lot of numer 8, it could be bad for me if I did not happen to play repeaters with positive progressions.

There are programs to test larger sample for fairness.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: kav on March 16, 2017, 11:38:08 AM
Jesper,

The pictures don't look strange, but for someone who plays the Kav bet for years they do look strange. It all depends on what you are looking for. 1% or 0,1% events can happen, but in NetEnd they happen all the time not just once in 100 or 1000.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Bayes on March 16, 2017, 12:46:34 PM
Kav, you could always do a runs test on some spins. It's described in one of the articles on my site:

http://www.roulettician.com/articles/article4.html

Several tests would be better, but it's a start.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Jesper on March 16, 2017, 01:50:10 PM
I recall a game there I lost my discipline (happens from time to time) and was back a sum I for sure never should risk, it was several 1000 Euro.
Just by luck "the last" (possible) bet save it and I won instead a good win.

The lesson is it is allways risky, and if we stop, for other reason than empty bankroll, we have to start next time with that minus anyhow. 
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Reyth on March 17, 2017, 04:38:09 PM
Hey, I thought I would try out my new utility to give some additional perspective.

16 numbers has a chance of hitting within 14 spins of  99.964%.  So, how many times can it be expected to miss successively?

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2i2ahco.jpg)

O_o

Woah.  That DOES look fishy... (the first entry is a 0 loss event)

I think Kav is right to say that the two events together approach a level of statistical rarity that could indicate tampering.

So what I mean we are saying their wheels have magnets, right?

Wow, so like Kav says, "stop playing as soon you suspect that the game is not fair".
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: TheGenner on March 18, 2017, 01:20:57 PM
Quite a few people think there is something not quite right with Netent Live Roulette.

This guy (Paul) does live streams 2/3 times a week with his own money. He is a high roller of sorts. This video was his worst loss of around 34k. Look at the spins and how the ball behaves. I have however seen him have some big wins at times of 5 or 6k in a single spin, so maybe the big loss just magnifies what some of us think is suspicious behaviour on the software providers part. Personally speaking, I think it's better to play at online sites which are coming from a real casino where you can see the players bet. Unfortunately Dublinbet does not stream from the Fitzwilliam Club in Ireland anymore, however there is still the Dragonara and The Portomaso Casinos which offer this. These studio outfits are to be avoided IMO.

Here is the 34k loss video. Ouch!!

https://youtu.be/qTQAWFU7L2o

Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: MrPerfect. on March 21, 2017, 07:48:43 PM
If his average win is 6k, loosing 34k is a bit too much.
  I miss fidzerald tables as well. ..
 Dragonara is quite good, l had nice wins there.
Portomasso doesn't stream to UK anymore, or at least they say so when l try to login :(.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: petespin on March 21, 2017, 08:30:42 PM
i always had the impression that casinos beat players that play many numbers , i ve seen this phenomenon so many times , i mean its an easy target , just few days ago i was in athens casino playing in airball machine and next to me was a a guy from pakistan and he was played that way full all the board , i tell him ' u play wrong way' and he end up loosing 1,500e, what s the best proof that this ?
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Reyth on March 21, 2017, 08:37:28 PM
Its simply a statistical ratio of risk:reward?
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: petespin on March 21, 2017, 08:55:46 PM
and never trust anything that u cant control, if u re inside a casino ,then its fine ..but to bet from your pc , this is common sense , anyway, does anyone knows about  that admiral panther roulette ?
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: MrPerfect. on March 22, 2017, 07:54:50 AM
I'm not sure about " panter", but admiral wheels may be interesting, depending on your level of skill and awareness.  They have 2 modes of operation. 1rst is very beatable, 2nd is not friendly.
   Good news is that they need to restart system to change the mod of operation. It looks like " system error" and terminals freeze for some time ( restart of system).
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: petespin on March 22, 2017, 05:12:28 PM
i wish to find out the beatable type , and it seems that it is becoz i played in all 3 same machines and all react the same manner , the model call lPANTHER' and u can play on your own , not like airballs ... thanks mr perfect anyway .
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: MrPerfect. on March 22, 2017, 06:52:00 PM
 If you find normal admiral,  lll tell you how to beat them ( assuming the one you find is beatable).
  They often become very bias ... trick is to determine one ball for sure and posibly find common numbers for other 2 balls.
   If you get one on neiborhood, lll give you details how to...
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: petespin on March 23, 2017, 09:28:35 AM
Mr perfect how can u tell me about admiral  roulette ,i mean here or by mail ? Iam very interested about it
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Reyth on March 24, 2017, 02:43:39 PM
First time I have seen a wheel this biased:

(http://i63.tinypic.com/3134u8i.jpg)

I just switched my bet selection to this street with raised chips!? O_o
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: Ainz on March 24, 2017, 06:30:23 PM
The problem of randomness.
Title: Re: NetEnt Live roulette fairness in doubt
Post by: MrPerfect. on March 25, 2017, 11:49:32 PM
Mr perfect how can u tell me about admiral  roulette ,i mean here or by mail ? Iam very interested about it
Still waiting for you.... how Skype account creation is going?