### Author Topic: Can the Spinner control the Ball?  (Read 7536 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

#### MrPerfect.

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1548
• Thanked: 871 times
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2016, 01:34:58 AM »
To throw the ball is a skill wich can be developed with time. Absolutely same things wich make roulette predictable,  same things make it controled on the will of dealer.  It's same calculations. I wouldn't say it's possible to throw desired number every time. But is it posible to throw the number with probability higher then expectation? Yes, definitely yes. It's a requirement for a dealer to work on high limit tables.
You guys can belive me or not, it's your decision.... there are videos on YouTube . Jafco dealer signature.  Who understand math, calculate probability of him being able to do his videos in one life time.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 01:36:38 AM by MrPerfect. »

#### kav

• www.Roulette30.com
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2080
• Thanked: 1072 times
• Gender:
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2016, 06:03:08 AM »
During my trip to Las Vegas I made it a point to talk to each dealer that I played against.  I asked each of them this question.  Their answers were pretty interesting.  They all agreed that they cannot control where the ball is going to land. They pointed out how the obstacles in the wheel make it difficult to do that. Many of them said they could try, but the obstacles make it extremely difficult.  One of the dealers I spoke with in Las Vegas said that if a number came up more than 3 times in a row, the dealer would be pulled from the game because the casino would suspect something was wrong. He said it is very rare to have a number come up more than 3 times in a row.

My favorite answer when I asked a croupier this question he said " If I could do that, do you honestly think I would be sitting here doing this. I would have already been retired by now."

I just wanted to share my first hand experience with you all about actually having spoken to about 8 different dealers in 4 days.  Their answers were all pretty much the same.

Romn,
Thanks for your Las Vegas investigation. This is very interesting. You are our roulette reporter :-)

#### kav

• www.Roulette30.com
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2080
• Thanked: 1072 times
• Gender:
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2016, 06:06:53 AM »
To throw the ball is a skill wich can be developed with time. Absolutely same things wich make roulette predictable,  same things make it controled on the will of dealer.  It's same calculations. I wouldn't say it's possible to throw desired number every time. But is it posible to throw the number with probability higher then expectation? Yes, definitely yes. It's a requirement for a dealer to work on high limit tables.
You guys can belive me or not, it's your decision.... there are videos on YouTube . Jafco dealer signature.  Who understand math, calculate probability of him being able to do his videos in one life time.

MrPerfect,
Saying this is possible does not tell much though. Winning the lottery is possible too.
To make it more specific, could you try to answer this question:
What percentage of dealers can throw the ball in a predetermined 5 numbers sector, 30% of the time (and do it constantly)?
I believe the percentage is quite low, below 5%.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 06:12:23 AM by kav »

The following users thanked this post: Reyth

#### Bebediktus

• Mature Member
• Posts: 284
• Thanked: 108 times
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2016, 07:02:55 AM »
To throw the ball is a skill wich can be developed with time. Absolutely same things wich make roulette predictable,  same things make it controled on the will of dealer.
You guys can belive me or not, it's your decision.... there are videos on YouTube . Jafco dealer signature.  Who understand math, calculate probability of him being able to do his videos in one life time.

Predicting roulette and hit to number group as dealer are totally diferent things.

If about Jafco video - then firstly his wheel is made specially for that,  nowdays wheels in casino are very sensitive and dealer cant do what Jafco show in his video. That is clear for any serious VB player.
Quote
What percentage of dealers can throw the ball in a predetermined 5 numbers sector, 30% of the time (and do it constantly)?
I believe the percentage is quite low, below 5%.

Dealer of course can train something, but to hit to 5 number sector 30% of time - that is mission inpossible.

And if that will be possible, that dealer will not work in casino....

The following users thanked this post: kav, december, Reyth

#### kav

• www.Roulette30.com
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2080
• Thanked: 1072 times
• Gender:
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2016, 07:29:43 AM »
Quote
What percentage of dealers can throw the ball in a predetermined 5 numbers sector, 30% of the time (and do it constantly)?
I believe the percentage is quite low, below 5%.
Dealer of course can train something, but to hit to 5 number sector 30% of time - that is mission inpossible.
And if that will be possible, that dealer will not work in casino....

I fully agree with you on this Bebe. Most experts would agree this is near impossible.

I copy from "Full time gambler" by Holloway:

"I have talked to old-time roulette dealers and pointedly asked them if they can control where the ball drops. Nearly all of the good ones can drop a ball on a specific side of the wheel (ed. note: 19 numbers). The expert ones can drop it within a quarter of the wheel (ed. note: 10 numbers). The good ones are about one in a hundred. The experts are one in a thousand. None claimed to be able to locate a ball in an exact number with but little more than a slight increase over the normal percentage.

Does this this mean you can forget the danger of an expert ball dropper? It does if you are not playing one or two straight-up numbers and nothing else."
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 07:54:15 AM by kav »

#### palestis

• Veteran Member
• Posts: 796
• Thanked: 713 times
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2016, 09:18:11 AM »
Quote
What percentage of dealers can throw the ball in a predetermined 5 numbers sector, 30% of the time (and do it constantly)?
I believe the percentage is quite low, below 5%.
Dealer of course can train something, but to hit to 5 number sector 30% of time - that is mission inpossible.
And if that will be possible, that dealer will not work in casino....

I fully agree with you on this Bebe. Most experts would agree this is near impossible.

I copy from "Full time gambler" by Holloway:

"I have talked to old-time roulette dealers and pointedly asked them if they can control where the ball drops. Nearly all of the good ones can drop a ball on a specific side of the wheel (ed. note: 19 numbers). The expert ones can drop it within a quarter of the wheel (ed. note: 10 numbers). The good ones are about one in a hundred. The experts are one in a thousand. None claimed to be able to locate a ball in an exact number with but little more than a slight increase over the normal percentage.

Does this this mean you can forget the danger of an expert ball dropper? It does if you are not playing one or two straight-up numbers and nothing else."
In casinos in Europe (at least the ones I am aware of), the dealer starts every new spin from above the last number spun. Give and take a number or two on either side of the last number spun. So there is a known starting marker. If he spins at a speed that he is accustomed to or feels comfortable with, and if no diamonds are hit, then he could probably land the ball in a region that he aims at.
In US casinos the dealer spins the wheel first, and then throws the ball at any time at his discretion.
Considering the wheel spins fast, he cannot possibly pay attention to the number above the beginning of the ball spin. it looks a little "blurry" anyway. His attention is on the players betting and getting prepared to call NMB. I find it hard to hit a planned section of the wheel.
If a dealer lands the ball in the half region of the wheel in every other spin, then it is a normal statistical expectation and not necessarily a planned action. Likewise if he hits a certain quarter once in every 4 spins, that's to be expected as well.
A smart player in European casinos can spot a steady speed, and then count the spaces from the starting point to where the ball landed CW or CCW. Then he can use that info to place bets in the expected landing zone, whenever he senses a familiar ball and wheel speed.
It a great VB system, but requires extreme concentration and lots of practice in  identifying  ball and wheel speeds.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 09:23:50 AM by palestis »

The following users thanked this post: kav, Reyth

• New
• Posts: 13
• Thanked: 12 times
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2016, 09:34:07 AM »
I believe that it is possible to hit a section within about five numbers. I have personally seen it and my girlfriend recently saw it demonstrated on a modern wheel in a casino in the uk.

However it is probably dependant on the wheel and ball used, the finest article that I have read on this subject was by Real (snowman) that he posted for a limited time on VLS I believe. Which explained everything.  I was in a casino last year on the outskirts of Vegas and saw a great example of dealers signature, I won playing three numbers, five times in a row until they changed the dealer.  In my opinion the two are related, based upon Reals article, and can still be accomplished on modern wheels.

Mike

The following users thanked this post: Reyth

#### kav

• www.Roulette30.com
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2080
• Thanked: 1072 times
• Gender:
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2016, 09:57:56 AM »
Intentional small sector shooting and unintentional dealer signature are two different things.

I think the article you are refering to is re-posted in this forum.

#### MrPerfect.

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1548
• Thanked: 871 times
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2016, 10:50:31 AM »
From dealer stand point... need a brain to do it. It's easy to learn steady throw. One revolition plus / minus is not many numbers. Last revolution timings is still very alike, first revolutions are very short. First ones is that count for differences ..
If dealer is able to recognise knee point, most use it for nmb signal, he/she can adjust for atmosphere changes.
I myself able to throw back spin or forward spin ( lm not even a dealer and didn't learn it on purpose).
So.. there are already 2 points of control:
1. Time ball makes till knee point
2. Type of throw.
Can every dealer do it? No!!! Can skill be developed? Yes!!! What can be done, will be done.
From dealer point of view, every 5th spin to favor friends bets...  it makes 8 spins per hour working to himself. Assuming 4 hour shift, it's 32 spins a day. In a month its 32×28= 896 spins. With the Kelly upplied..... hundreds of tousends won. ....
Is it worth it? Could dealer be a part of team? Would one year be enough to have a good life granted?  Guys make your math. Do a simulation. Dealers who do not do it are lazy.

The following users thanked this post: Reyth

#### Bebediktus

• Mature Member
• Posts: 284
• Thanked: 108 times
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2016, 10:56:42 AM »
I believe that it is possible to hit a section within about five numbers. I have personally seen it and my girlfriend recently saw it demonstrated on a modern wheel in a casino in the uk.

However it is probably dependant on the wheel and ball used, the finest article that I have read on this subject was by Real (snowman) that he posted for a limited time on VLS I believe. Which explained everything.  I was in a casino last year on the outskirts of Vegas and saw a great example of dealers signature, I won playing three numbers, five times in a row until they changed the dealer.  In my opinion the two are related, based upon Reals article, and can still be accomplished on modern wheels.

Mike
Here is very big diference between "possible" and "trained that can".
In about 5 times from 37 that dealer will hit, maybe even 6  if he is very trained, but essence is that he can say nothing for sure.

Are very simple experiment - lets say you know ideally place where ball will first time touch wheel, what is of course not possible, - so mark that number and  write real outcome , count distance from that touch point till final point, calculate disperssion and you will see how wide it is.
So that is from first touch point  - and then think if you all that do 20-25 rotattions before before - like dealer throw. Now  look to all other imagine that dealer throw simply ball and must hit to 10 centimetres window, from...30*2m = 60 metters and think if that realistick ....

The following users thanked this post: kav, december

• New
• Posts: 13
• Thanked: 12 times
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2016, 12:26:09 PM »
Kav,

I am aware of the difference,  I think that what I was trying to say is that the two are related,  ie they need the same conditions, also if one can work unconsciously than perhaps you can train to do it consciously.

however

Bebidictus

You make a very good point,  and I will happily stand down from my last post, as I have great respect for you, and you are way more knowledgeable than I in these matters.

However, seeing it done (albiet on older wheels) was what gave me an inkling that there may be methods to win using approaches other than systems.  If I apply any AP methods they are very simplistic in nature and easy to apply,  and they are based upon the premise of dealer signature, with a bit of VB thrown in there. The fundamental method that I use is based on how that particular croupier controlled the ball.  I know it s not that great a method,  but then what is? and it did serve me well at the casino I spoke about earlier.

Mike
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 04:56:36 PM by kav »

The following users thanked this post: kav

#### kav

• www.Roulette30.com
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2080
• Thanked: 1072 times
• Gender:
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2016, 01:39:45 PM »
MePerfect,
What percentage of regular casino dealers do you believe can shoot to a 5 number sector?

#### december

• Veteran Member
• Posts: 375
• Thanked: 40 times
• Gender:
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2016, 04:05:35 PM »

However, seeing it done (albiet on older wheels) was what gave me an inkling that there may be methods to win using approaches other than systems.  If I apply any AP methods they are very simplistic in nature and easy to apply,  and they are based upon the premise of dealer signature, with a bit of VB thrown in there. The fundamental method that I use is based on how that particular croupier controlled the ball.  I know it s not that great a method,  but then what is? and it did serve me well at the casino I spoke about earlier.

Mike

The following users thanked this post: kav

#### MrPerfect.

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1548
• Thanked: 871 times
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2016, 04:49:48 PM »
MePerfect,
What percentage of regular casino dealers do you believe can shoot to a 5 number sector?
On regular table- none probably. On high limit tables - 10-20%.
Now becomes popular other trick... use of bias roulette wheel has via type of throw. I have seen many dealer online using it, at least 7 of them to the high degree of control. One of them l teached myself via chat...  one guy was crying for zeroes.... dealer answered that it wasn't her to determine numbers. I gave advice to stop backspinning( ball was going tiers moustly)... it worked. I have seen same dealer use this trick a lot after. Works mostly on very low profile wheel with one defect in particular....

The following users thanked this post: kav, Reyth

#### Romn.Paras

• Moderator
• New
• Posts: 88
• Thanked: 18 times
##### Re: Can the Spinner control the Ball?
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2016, 07:56:00 PM »
You all make very valid points.  This always a fun topic to discuss.  Now I will throw another question to you.  IF the dealer can control where the ball is going to go within a few numbers, do you think he can control whether it lands on Red or Black, Odd or Even, or High or Low?  This is one of the reasons why I play the outside even money bets. IF by some chance the dealer can hit within a certain section, what are the chances he can hit the exact color repeatedly ?  This was another question I asked a few dealers while I was there. I asked if a dealer could control what color the ball would land on. All of them said that is next to impossible.  What are your thoughts?